Train to Nowhere in NY State

[JayBird]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/01/nyregion/cuomo-administration-looks-to-sell-4-trains-from-failed-rail-project.html?_r=1&smid=tw-nytimes&seid=auto

So it is apparent that Jacksonville's failure to institute commuter rail is not only a localized travesty.  With all the talk of high speed rail and the Obama administrations' push for green energy (and in that more eco-friendly transportation), I am actually surprised to read this article about the failed high speed line between NYC and Albany.

[BackinJax05]

Good catch. Now I dont feel so bad Florida doesnt have high speed rail.

[Ocklawaha]

Sorry guys, this is simply a reporter not knowing the difference between the cab and the caboose. This wasn't some giant billion dollar HSR plan like Florida's. The NY plan came along in the 1970's right after the creation of Amtrak. It was a time when just about anyone you asked would have told you the railroad's didn't know what they were doing so the government had to create Amtrak to teach them how to make passenger trains work. FAT CHANCE!

Amtrak made so many bone headed mistakes in that first decade that we are still feeling the heat from them today. Moving big city stations into Amshack's, and moving those out of town ostensibly to prevent the citizenry from hearing the trains 'landing' and 'taking off.' Buying a bunch of junk trains from aircraft manufacturers was another, and that is where these turbo trains came into play.

The first of the 'turbo-liners' were big ugly round end affairs made by United Aircraft. They weren't good trains and they were lousy airplanes! Next came these Rohr Aircraft 'Turboliners' which the State Of New York, partnered with Amtrak, got to run on some rehabilitated track, track that had almost ALWAYS been 110-120 mph. One only has to check the schedules of the Empire State Express, or 20Th Century Limited, in the 1930's-60's to understand that this wasn't the Japanese, Tokyo-Osaka line. However the NY route has always been excellent CONVENTIONAL fast track.

Turbo-liners had a lot of 'Euro-trash' built into them and they were popular when they were running well. Trouble is a turbine powered train is about as rare in the USA as chicken's teeth. Mechanic's were hard to come by and expensive to train. Parts were almost nonexistent. The turbo's ran HOT and thus created all manner of failures of ducts, wires, etc.. Worse still the airplane builders and politician's thought that 5 cars was long enough so the trains were designed so they could not be uncoupled, added to or shortened.

Bottom line, early Amtrak missteps, not a dead HSR line. I better quit for now, tomorrow the TU will probably announce how Tampa has a plan for a 'passenger cabooses' on a 'HIGH SPEED-Commuter-Light-Rail' line to Ocala! IDIOTS!

[Timkin]

Sorry guys, this is simply a reporter not knowing the difference between the cab and the caboose.

I better quit for now, tomorrow the TU will probably announce how Tampa has a plan for a 'passenger cabooses' on a 'HIGH SPEED-Commuter-Light-Rail' line to Ocala! IDIOTS!

LOL..  I would rather it read..... Jacksonville plans to revive the 1504 and add cars and operate as a tourist train !!

[Ocklawaha]

The United Aircraft Turbo Train came from the Penn Central and was... well, just the fact that it came from the wreck of the Penn Central should have been a clue to Amtrak to stay away from these beasts.


The Rohr Aircraft Turboliner's were not as ugly, but their bottom line sure was!

Hopefully everyone can see this was NOT FAILED HIGH SPEED RAIL.

OCKLAWAHA

[JayBird]

Thanks Ock, I had no idea the history went that far back.  I had thought Amtrak was the only provider of high speed rail ever in the United States with its Acela, but apparently that is not fully true.  I am not too familiar with specifics of HSR, but is there a reason why this new rail service from FEC cannot be a HSR line?  It would make sense to use the current technology at least between Orlando and Miami unless they need special tracks or crossing setups.

[Ocklawaha]

http://www.youtube.com/v/nW7mEoZypX8?version=3&hl=en_US
Once upon a time, long before there was an 'Amtrak...'

Thanks Ock, I had no idea the history went that far back.  I had thought Amtrak was the only provider of high speed rail ever in the United States with its Acela, but apparently that is not fully true.  I am not too familiar with specifics of HSR, but is there a reason why this new rail service from FEC cannot be a HSR line?  It would make sense to use the current technology at least between Orlando and Miami unless they need special tracks or crossing setups.

Jaybird, actually there were already experiments with 'high speed rail' well back into the 1960's. Prior to 1947, America had a number of rail lines that would qualify as HSR today. This all changed based on an {ICC} Interstate Commerce Commission  order in 1947 which, among other things, restricted passenger train speeds on track not protected by automatic train stop or cab signals to less than 80 MPH. The cause of this nationwide slowdown was none other then our own Atlantic Coast Line and Southern Railway, on the mainline between Jacksonville and Savannah.

Early morning on January 17, 1953, a Southern freight train was traveling north behind Diesel unit 6237, with 56 cars and a caboose. Around 2:20 am, a passing southbound train indicated to the crew of Extra 6237 that there was a defective condition on their train. The crew of the freight train immediately threw out a fusee {flare} and proceeded to stop their train.  The flagman then proceeded over a mile south of the signal, where he placed two torpedoes {think very loud fireworks strapped over the rail} and a 10 minute fusee. He was directed to stop the following train-ACL #8 and inform the engineer that the freight would take the siding in the next town ahead, letting the passenger train pass.

About ten minutes after the flagman set the torpedos, he noticed that the headlight of the northbound passenger train and heard the horn sounded for a nearby grade crossing. The flagman lit a red fusee and proceeded to give stop signals until the train passed. The engineer of the passenger train did not acknowledge the stop signals, but the flagman did observe sparks flying from the wheels of the passenger train, indicating that brakes were applied. The passenger train hit the caboose at a speed of 56 miles per hour.

The caboose and the rear six cars of the freight were destroyed, and one car on the adjacent siding was badly damaged. The passenger train consisted of three Diesel units-500, 546 and 521, two dead head sleeping cars, a baggage dormitory car, eight coaches, a tavern car, a diner and six sleepers. the first two sleepers were heavyweights, as was the first coach, the tavern car and the remaining six sleepers. The other cars were all lightweights. The train departed Jacksonville at 1:06 am, 26 minutes late and passed the nearest open station - Doctortown Georgia, at 2:30 am, 24 minutes late. Upon striking the caboose, the Diesel units and the first five cars of train 8 were derailed.

The first four passenger cars were badly damaged, while the fifth car was slightly damaged. The engineer and fireman of train 8 were killed, while the conductor of the freight was injured, along with 81 passengers, 1 coach attendant and two dining car employees.

Apparently, it was a foggy night and there was concern that the crew of train 8 may have missed the signals south of the point of impact, which showed approach and stop and proceed. The speed tapes in the lead engine showed that the crew of train 8 did make the appropriate speed reductions in several locations south of the accident location, and did blow the horn properly for a nearby grade crossing. The speed tape did show that the train was being operated 95-96 miles per hour when the emergency brakes were activated.

The ICC took strong exception to this as it had instituted an order on June 17, 1947 which limited passenger train speeds to 79 mph in areas where there was no automatic train stop, train control system or continuous cab signal system. Despite this order, it noted that more than 25 % of the passenger trains operated between Jesup and Savannah regularly exceeded this speed limit.

ICC noted that 507 passenger trains operated between December 1, 1952 and February 28, 1953 exceeded the 79 mph speed limit. 47 of those trains exceeded a speed of 100 mph. In one instance, a train was operated at a speed of 108 mph for 10 miles and 100 mph for 25 miles. In another instance, a train operated at 99 mph for 42 miles. ICC concluded that the train speed contributed to the accident's severity, but that the cause was the crew of train 8 failing to operate in accordance with signal indications.

Complete Story: http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=003YXU

Now as for the FEC RY line, according to the Federal Railroad Administration: High-Speed Rail (HSR) and Intercity Passenger Rail (IPR) are defined as follows:

"HSR â€" Express. Frequent, express service between major population centers 200â€"600 miles apart, with few intermediate stops. Top speeds of at least 150 mph on completely grade-separated, dedicated rights-of-way with the exception of some shared track in terminal areas.

"HSR â€" Regional. Relatively frequent service between major and moderate population centers 100â€"500 miles apart, with some intermediate stops. Top speeds of 110â€"150 mph, grade-separated, with some dedicated and some shared track (using positive train control technology).

"Emerging HSR. Developing corridors of 100â€"500 miles, with strong potential for future HSR Regional and/or Express service. Top speeds of up to 90â€"110 mph on primarily shared track (eventually using positive train control technology), with advanced grade crossing protection or separation.

"Conventional Rail. Traditional intercity passenger rail services of more than 100 miles with as little as one to as many as 7â€"12 daily frequencies; may or may not have strong potential for future high-speed rail service. Top speeds of up to 79 mph to as high as 90.

FEDERAL RAILROAD ADMINISTRATION

The FEC RY denies that their plans are for HSR, but their speed limits are planned to be in the 90-120 mph range, easily qualifying them as 'Emerging HSR'. BTW, FEC RY has the newest state-of-the-art, in cab signals. Most conventional passenger train equipment can easily be made to handle higher speeds. FECI says the trains will operate at 120 between Orlando and Cocoa {the new track segment} then at 110 to West Palm Beach and 90 on into Miami. On our end the FEC-AMTRAK plan calls for 79 mph to King Street in St. Augustine and hence 90 to Cocoa where it could assume the aforementioned speeds.

OTHERWISE TODAY:

Parts of the Burlington Northern Santa Fe, Amtrak's Chicago-LA route and the LA-San Diego route have speeds of 90-110. The Amtrak-owned portion of Chicago-Detroit is good for 95 mph. Northeast Corridor extensions to Harrisburg and Albany/Schenectady have stretches of 110 mph. The Hudson River Line north out of NYP to Albany has some 90 and 100+ track around Hudson. Chicago-Milwaukee-Twin Cities likewise has some 90-110 mph track. By 2014, the entire Chicago-St. Louis Amtrak route will be good for 110 mph. This type of incremental HSR is something that we at MJ have been supporting all along.

Hope this explains things....

OCKLAWAHA

[JayBird]

Very much so, thank you!  Ironic how if we had dedicated more resources to rail systems instead of highways the technology we could've had by now.  As always, thanks for teaching me my new thing for the day.