Is Riverside/Avondale Ready For Mellow Mushroom?

[Ocklawaha]

Gosh, I do not want to sound unkind or disagreeable, but your statement is laughable.

Don't worry Tony, you sounded more like 'dumb as a box of rocks' then you did unkind. Check out the photos in the article that started this thread, its ridiculous to suggest a Jacksonville business couldn't do the same things.

You simply said you didn't want to sound unkind, then went on to laugh at Lake's educated statement. I simply replied to your premise by saying you didn't sound unkind, rather it made you sound 'dumb as a box of rock.' How does that mean that I called you 'dumb as a box of rocks.' If that offended you I'm sorry, sarcasm is my spiritual gift!

Now about that streetcar need, demand, ridership, cost:

The Truth-O-Meter Says:

Says "streetcars carry more people than buses … you attract more riders who don't ride transit now, and actually the operating costs are not any greater than the bus."
Charlie Hales on Sunday, February 12th, 2012 in an interview.

Do streetcars really beat out buses in capacity, ridership and cost?


Hales hasn’t advocated expanding the city’s system during his current campaign, but the subject keeps coming up. During an appearance on Oregon Public Broadcasting’s "Think Out Loud," Hales explained why he’s so keen on street cars.

It comes down to three things, he said: Because "streetcars carry more people than buses. Because you attract more riders who don't ride transit now. And actually the operating costs are not any greater than the bus. The trick is coming up with the very large capital cost."

These sorts of talking points get thrown around a lot by rail-system advocates. We thought it was high time we checked it out.

Our first call was to Hales’ campaign. His spokeswoman, Jessica Moskovitz, sent us a thorough e-mail outlining the support for the various pieces of the statement. Before we get to all that, though, let’s start with TriMet when spokeswoman Mary Fetsch.

On whether streetcars carry more people than buses, there is no ambiguity. Streetcars have a maximum capacity of 92 riders, according to Fetsch. That’s nearly double the 51 or so riders who can fit on a single bus. (It was clear during the interview that Hales was talking capacity here and not the actual number of riders.)

The next part was about whether streetcars have a smaller operating cost. Naturally, our minds went to the huge down payment a city has to make on tracks, whereas a bus can use existing roads. But Hales was careful to take that out of the equation by acknowledging the startup costs. It’s clear he was talking about day-to-day operation. On that point, he seems to be right again.

According to Fetsch, the streetcar operations cost $1.50 per boarding ride, while the bus costs $2.82. Now, there are a few important caveats here. Portland’s streetcar system is much smaller than TriMet's bus and MAX systems.

The last bit of important context here, too, is that the streetcar system requires fewer maintenance expenses: It’s younger and it runs at lower speeds, so it has less wear than the MAX and bus system.

That leaves us with the last bit: Do streetcars really attract riders who don’t typically take public transit?

Moskovitz, the spokeswoman for Hales, pointed us to a study by Edson Tennyson for the National Research Council on the issue of rail transit. Tennyson concluded that, all things being equal, "rail transit is likely to attract 34 percent to 43 percent more riders than will equivalent bus services."

TriMet, however, had two pieces of pertinent information.

First up, between 2000 and 2003, bus stops within a sixth of a mile of the streetcar saw ridership drop by 20 percent when the rail went online. Meanwhile, the streetcar ridership grew well beyond that drop, indicating the system was attracting more people than just those who would have ridden the bus. Second, according to a June 2011 rider study, 38 percent of occasional and infrequent riders exclusively used the MAX, while only 12 percent exclusively used the bus. Of course, the MAX is not the streetcar, but this fact seems to speak to the attractiveness of rail travel over bus for some transit users..

So that brings us to the ruling. Hales said "streetcars carry more people than buses … you attract more riders who don't ride transit now, and actually the operating costs are not any greater than the bus." Whether these arguments make a persuasive case for the necessity and usefulness of a streetcar system is, of course, up for debate. The statement itself remains factual. While, there’s some missing context, it’s nothing significant. We rate this claim True.

ARTICLE EDITED FOR BREVITY,  SOURCE: http://www.politifact.com/oregon/statements/2012/apr/03/charlie-hales/do-streetcars-really-beat-out-buses-capacity-rider/

Why streetcars are better than buses


Streetcars are big in planning circles right now. DC and Arlington have grand plans for them, as do many cities around the US. Every time the subject comes up, however, someone poses the question what makes streetcars better than buses?

It’s a valid question, and it has a series of valid answers. Here are the most important:

Streetcars are more affordable than buses. While it’s true that streetcars require a much larger initial capital investment than buses, that capital cost is offset by significant operational savings year-to year. In the long term, streetcars are more affordable as long as they are used on high ridership routes.

Streetcars have higher passenger capacity than buses (even bendy ones), which means that if there are lots of riders on your route, you can move them with fewer vehicles. Fewer vehicles means more efficient use of fuel and fewer (unionized, pensioned) drivers to pay.

Streetcar vehicles themselves are much more sturdy than buses, and last many decades longer. While buses must generally be retired and replacements purchased about every 10 years, streetcars typically last 40 years or more. For example, Philadelphia’s SEPTA transit system is still using streetcar vehicles built in 1947 (although they have been overhauled once since then).

Streetcars are much more comfortable to ride than buses. One of the big reasons why many Americans don’t like buses is that they are so rumbly. They jerk you up, down, side to side. They’re simply not comfortable. Streetcars glide along a rail much more smoothly, offering a vastly more comfortable ride. Less motion sickness, easier to hang on. This issue isn’t often discussed in transit circles, but it is a really big deal. Passengers gravitate towards the most comfortable ride.

Streetcar routes are easier to understand. In any big city, buses are confusing. There are so many criss-crossing and competing routes that it can be intimidating and difficult to understand. New users are turned off because they don’t want to accidentally get on the wrong bus and end up miles from their real destination. Streetcars, on the other hand, are easier to understand because the cost of constructing tracks inherently limits the size of the system. Instead of an incomprehensible jumble, you get a clean and easy to understand system map. Even if streetcar line names may be a little more complicated than “Red Line”, they’ll be a whole heckuva lot easier to figure out than “P18″.

Streetcars attract more riders than buses. Partially because of the above points, streetcars are always used by more people than buses when all other things are equal. They attract more passengers, which after all is the whole point of public transit.
Streetcars are economic development magnets. The presence of rail transit nearby is one of the best incentives for economic development in the world. Metro stations radically remade large swaths of the DC area, and streetcars can do the same (have done the same, in places like Portland and Toronto). Nobody ever built a condo building or shopping mall because a bus route stops nearby, but developers routinely follow rail investments with real estate ones. Indeed, the additional taxes generated by rail-oriented development can repay the initial capital investment.

Streetcars use electricity rather than gas. Although it depends how the electricity is generated, this potentially makes streetcars much more environmentally friendly than buses. And while it’s true that electric buses exist, they are almost never used in the US, and require the same overhead wires as streetcars.

Streetcars are much quieter than buses. Becuase they run on electricity, streetcars are very quiet vehicles. They are much less disruptive to neighborhood life than buses.

Streetcars are iconic. Trains are graphic symbols for the city in a way that buses simply are not. Every tourist knows about the DC Metro, the New York subway, and the San Francisco cable cars. Their trains are an indispensable part of those city’s brands, and streetcars will be too as soon as they’re running. Nobody ever sent a postcard featuring a picture of a bus.

SOURCE: http://beyonddc.com/log/?p=1733

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ABOUT THE SEATTLE STREETCAR

Seattle: Streetcars are great!
How does riding the streetcar work?

Board at any of the 11 stops shown on the South Lake Union line map.  You can check arrival times on-line or at the station. You can purchase a ticket on the platform before your trip or on-board if you do not have an ORCA card or valid Metro bus transfer.

If you are using a mobility device or a stroller, you can choose to press the blue button marked with a wheelchair symbol to deploy the bridge-plate that bridges the small gap between the streetcar and the platform.

Press the yellow stop request strip to request your stop.  The next stop is announced by audio and shown on a digital message display.

Why streetcars anyway - why not a bus?

Streetcars can carry more riders per trip than a bus, and they tend to attract more riders because of their ease of access and ride quality.  They also help to catalyze and organize economic development.  This makes them a good choice for certain high-density corridors.

What makes them different from light rail?

Streetcars are small light rail vehicles.  They can more easily fit into established urban neighborhoods because of their size, but they do not carry as many people as larger light rail vehicles.  Typically, light rail is built with its own lane, in a tunnel or elevated to provide a faster, more reliable trip.

How many people ride the South Lake Union line?

There were over 700,000 rides in 2011, and ridership is continuing to grow.  During peak summer months, ridership

EDITED FOR RELEVANCE,  SOURCE: http://www.seattlestreetcar.org/faq.htm

Posted by: Tonyinchicago
In as much as this is about Avondale, I can say that the customers of the shops and F&B establishments for the most part will not use this form of transportation to go to Avondale.  But, the employees who mostly live in Rside will.  And that can help reduce the demand on spaces.  In a city like Jax, the buses are few and far between.  Those employees would benefit for knowing when the buses arrive and when they will arrive at work.

Posted by: Tonyinchicago
Ockalawa has posted some very pretty pictures of streetcars  I could not agree more that mass transit is the answer.  But before you start digging up streets for rail, the existing system that is already in place (buses) will need to show a significant increase in customers.

Tony, it has been proved over and over throughout the country that streetcars will draw riders where buses will not, in fact streetcar ridership is rising nationally while bus ridership has been declining for decades, moreover, the streetcar ridership gains in some cities have offset the downward ridership trends posted by the buses.

Buses will not, due to their 'highly advertised flexibility,' match rail transit as an economic engine. They also will not draw those 'choice riders,' in significant numbers, no matter how frequent, or tricked out. Most non transit planners believe as you do that first you must get the bus system running well enough to increase ridership, then build streetcars. Alas, this is not true, the streetcar will draw from places those buses will never reach, furthermore, the streetcar becomes an arterial or even a primary circulator that the weaker bus lines can link to.

[Tonyinchicago]

Ockalawa has posted some very pretty pictures of streetcars  I could not agree more that mass transit is the answer.  But before you start digging up streets for rail, the existing system that is already in place (buses) will need to show a significant increase in customers.  This is done by transit trackers.  Someone earlier in this lengthy thread stated that other cities that have this system only saw a 10% increase in ridership.  Hard to believe but the study may be factual.  You MUST have a bridge between customer and product in the form of transit trackers in this day and tech age.  I use mass transit every day here in Chicago and the trackers are essential to being at my stop and not freezing my ass off.  I can time my elevator ride down out of my building and arrive 1/2 a block away without any wait. 

In as much as this is about Avondale, I can say that the customers of the shops and F&B establishments for the most part will not use this form of transportation to go to Avondale.  But, the employees who mostly live in Rside will.  And that can help reduce the demand on spaces.  In a city like Jax, the buses are few and far between.  Those employees would benefit for knowing when the buses arrive and when they will arrive at work.

I don't know about that.  Places like Mellow and the neighborhood in general appeal to young professionals/transit choice riders.  The same young professionals that Jax has had trouble retaining.  However, regarding MM (and other short term projects), better utilization of existing on and off street parking capacity should suffice.  Fixed transit and modification of existing bus services is something that should be promoted now so that it's incrementally implemented by the end of the decade to help deal with long term issues.

That statement is insane.  Do you really want to ague with me about the problems of parking in Avondale now before any other businesses go in.  The parking situation is a nightmare.  I know first hand of the complaints from the customers and residents.  You know nothing of this.

Ate dinner twice in the Shoppes this week.  Had no problem finding legal parking (I don't expect to park at the front door of a restaurant any less than I expect to park next to the cash registers at Wal Mart).  On a third night at the Shoppes this week, I took the pictures you see in the article depicting inadequate bike parking and completely underutilized parking supply.  I also biked to the Shoppes this morning for breakfast, finding the lone bike rack already full I decided to bike to Bagel Love instead.   

That's about as first hand experience as you need

That's now.  What about 6 months from now with 250 seats proposed and the 125 that was withdrawn across the street and Monty's.  Those will surely be back.  Think forward from here my friends.

I think my thoughts on the matter regarding better parking management in the short term and viable alternative transportation modes in the long term are about thinking further.  What in your opinion is the way to move forward?

Again, it is not incumbent for me to offer solutions to hypothetical situations that do not yet exist.  The parking is saturated and there is no more.  Unless you can figure a way to park on clouds.   There is no more parking left. Period.

[thelakelander]

^I'm actually looking forward to seeing more businesses come in. I can't wait to see a walkable commercial strip blossom that's vibrant day and night that doesn't negatively impact the area's quality of life.

No need to apologize to me.  I'm not hurt and plan on getting a good night's sleep tonight and after MM and the next guy opens.

Dont worry, Im not apologizing to you in any way.   Do you live within 3 block of this area???   Were you at the meeting at Grace church?  Did you listen the all the residents who voiced opposition to this at that meeting?  An issue that impacts their daily lives because they live within three blocks.  Why dont you find out how the neighborhood really feels before YOU form an opinion on an issue that does not affect your daily life.

None of this sideshow diatribe really matters in a zoning case.  I could live on top of the shell station but if the zoning ordinance allows the use I hate, the problem is with public policy.  Lashing out at customers who don't agree with your position and perspective business owners aren't going to get you anywhere.  You're going to have to blow off a lot of unnecessary steam when the places you hate end up getting approved.

[fieldafm]

I just gave you my first hand parking and biking experiences over the last 6 days.  There is in fact parking right now.  You just asked me a 'hypothetical' about parking in 6 months from now and said we need to think forward.  Maybe I'm not following what you're saying.  Would you mind clarifying?

[Tonyinchicago]

^I'm actually looking forward to seeing more businesses come in. I can't wait to see a walkable commercial strip blossom that's vibrant day and night that doesn't negatively impact the area's quality of life.

No need to apologize to me.  I'm not hurt and plan on getting a good night's sleep tonight and after MM and the next guy opens.

Dont worry, Im not apologizing to you in any way.   Do you live within 3 block of this area???   Were you at the meeting at Grace church?  Did you listen the all the residents who voiced opposition to this at that meeting?  An issue that impacts their daily lives because they live within three blocks.  Why dont you find out how the neighborhood really feels before YOU form an opinion on an issue that does not affect your daily life.

None of this sideshow diatribe really matters in a zoning case.  I could live on top of the shell station but if the zoning ordinance allows the use I hate, the problem is with public policy.  Lashing out at customers who don't agree with your position and perspective business owners aren't going to get you anywhere.  You're going to have to blow off a lot of unnecessary steam when the places you hate end up getting approved.

And there you go folks, the word "hate" has emerged.  Not mine his.  So evidently you do not live within a  3 block area and are not impacted on a daily basis as we are.  I assume you were not at the meeting either.  Enough with you, you are irrational and do not put words in my mouth.

[thelakelander]

Are you okay? 

Hopefully, this isn't what Valentino is having to put up with when he's looking at dropping $1-$2 million on site that has been an eyesore for years.

[Ocklawaha]

Again, since your not involved, it does not matter.  I will keep you guys posted with the decisions of the relevant partners in this, merchants, property owners, residents, business owners, customers and RAP.  Continue the personal attacks, it does not count for a "hill of beans".

Im only sensitive because you know not of what you speak.  I do. I have lived it , been there.  Sorry

This is absolutely hilarious, TonyinCHICAGO, is lashing out at people that LIVE in the Jacksonville, and have businesses, or family, in the neighborhood. Tony knows nothing of our ownerships, roots or involvement but from Chicago, he's telling everyone that we know nothing about it, as if he does. These assumptions are preposterous.

I'm thinking I should protest something in Chicago, around the block from Tony because I've been there, I've lived it...Sorry but this is too damn funny. Anything we can do to help you out my friend.

[Know Growth]

Are you okay? 

Hopefully, this isn't what Valentino is having to put up with when he's looking at dropping $1-$2 million on site that has been an eyesore for years.

Since when  does asking price and all of the assumptions driving such merit justice,reality ?

It has recently dawned on me that the chair I sat in for  haircuts for many years ( diverse community retail need!) has been replaced by the Towne Bar.

Casablanca sold out for a ton of $.
which = overhead for subsequent business plan,buyers,tenants.

only a certain 'business plan' ,assumptions could meet  escalting overhead, which apparently calls for 'franchise' and vastly expanded seating.

Seating = Parking.      ( Bicycle racks a ruse....reminds me of " Conservation/  wetland belt undeveloped lands during Beltway proceedings)

Ortega Boatyard/ Landing just down the street  is ready example of were this may go.
COJ Planning Department Parking element was an acknowledged joke.
The whle thing exploded, origional purchase price paid by speculators,which forced more reasonable ( in fact local, such as Bronson Lamb III ) buyers to stand back, was finally absorbed through bank foreclosure during the past months. Something on the order of 15 Million negative.

[Ocklawaha]

Y'all know that one of the first symptoms of a nervous breakdown if a belief that ones work is terribly important. I guess that winners never quit, but those that never win and never quit are idiots. And those people are alive just because it's illegal to kill them.

[Know Growth]

Yeah this is hilarious. 

like that word Hilarious
Glad to see it so commonly employed

[JeffreyS]

Certainly the residents of Riverside should have known it was an urban core neighborhood when they moved there. If they want suburban style parking we have all the Oakleafs, Julington Creeks and Nocatees a sprawlville parker could dream of.  I lived in Riverside a few times, own a buisness in Murry Hill and basically am around often, I haven't ever had to park more than 2 or 3 blocks away while visiting the shoppes is the parking there really worth talking about.  Quiet gated communities abound in Jax metro Riverside is not and hasn't been one of them. 

[thelakelander]

Are you okay? 

Hopefully, this isn't what Valentino is having to put up with when he's looking at dropping $1-$2 million on site that has been an eyesore for years.

Since when  does asking price and all of the assumptions driving such merit justice,reality ?

It has recently dawned on me that the chair I sat in for  haircuts for many years ( diverse community retail need!) has been replaced by the Towne Bar.

Casablanca sold out for a ton of $.
which = overhead for subsequent business plan,buyers,tenants.

only a certain 'business plan' ,assumptions could meet  escalting overhead, which apparently calls for 'franchise' and vastly expanded seating.

Seating = Parking.      ( Bicycle racks a ruse....reminds me of " Conservation/  wetland belt undeveloped lands during Beltway proceedings)

Ortega Boatyard/ Landing just down the street  is ready example of were this may go.
COJ Planning Department Parking element was an acknowledged joke.
The whle thing exploded, origional purchase price paid by speculators,which forced more reasonable ( in fact local, such as Bronson Lamb III ) buyers to stand back, was finally absorbed through bank foreclosure during the past months. Something on the order of 15 Million negative.

The better question would be, why crucify perspective business owners who also live in the neighborhood for things that are beyond the extents of their projects and zoning applications?  If there is a problem with the zoning overlay, then why not address it?

It has recently dawned on me that the chair I sat in for  haircuts for many years ( diverse community retail need!) has been replaced by the Towne Bar.

Retailers change over time as people retire, die, or move on to other things.  Btw, new chairs have opened up at the new barbershop at the intersection of St Johns and Talbot.

[Know Growth]

Certainly the residents of Riverside should have known it was an urban core neighborhood when they moved there. If they want suburban style parking we have all the Oakleafs, Julington Creeks and Nocatees a sprawlville parker could dream of.  I lived in Riverside a few times, own a buisness in Murry Hill and basically am around often, I haven't ever had to park more than 2 or 3 blocks away while visiting the shoppes is the parking there really worth talking about.  Quiet gated communities abound in Jax metro Riverside is not and hasn't been one of them.

.....and "Avondale" ?

[Know Growth]

Are you okay? 

Hopefully, this isn't what Valentino is having to put up with when he's looking at dropping $1-$2 million on site that has

The better question would be, why crucify perspective business owners who also live in the neighborhood for things that are beyond the extents of their projects and zoning applications?  If there is a problem with the zoning overlay, then why not address it?

what does living in the neighborhood have anything to do with it??
Reinhold lives in the Beltway neighborhood..... A point that empowered the Beltway Boosters.

How low energy most of this is.


Retailers change over time as people retire, die, or move on to other things.  Btw, new chairs have opened up at the new barbershop at the intersection of St Johns and Talbot.

[JeffreyS]

Certainly the residents of Riverside should have known it was an urban core neighborhood when they moved there. If they want suburban style parking we have all the Oakleafs, Julington Creeks and Nocatees a sprawlville parker could dream of.  I lived in Riverside a few times, own a buisness in Murry Hill and basically am around often, I haven't ever had to park more than 2 or 3 blocks away while visiting the shoppes is the parking there really worth talking about.  Quiet gated communities abound in Jax metro Riverside is not and hasn't been one of them.

.....and "Avondale" ?

Is a pocket of Riverside that is a bit more vibrant than riverside as a whole.