skyway blog entry

[jcjohnpaint]

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/401820/mark-woods/2012-02-04/skyway-ferry-they-shouldnt-be-shut-down-when-users-cant

[Tacachale]

Interesting to hear him say basically the same thing skyway and ferry proponents do. I guess not everyone has just written them off.

[jcjohnpaint]

you know the article did get me thinking.  I am not an avid rider of the skyway because I don't have a reason to use it.  If I want to go down down I park where I want to go.  If I want to go to San Marco or Riverside I park where I want to go.  I do know that if the skyway did go from one community to the other I would just park in say Riverside and take the skyway into downtown just as I would in any other city.  The project must be completed in order for it to make sense. 

[Tacachale]

I recently learned that the reason the stadium extension wasn't initially built was the Feds. They decided there weren't enough people or businesses there to justify it... Had that been built, the vast amount of free parking there could be used during the week, with folks taking the skyway into downtown. Currently JTA is having to run a shuttle to the courthouse to do that (and they're about to stop).

But yeah... it's plainly obvious that the thing should be expanded if we want it to ever really function.

[thelakelander]

I could see that (Feds denying stadium extension, assuming it was just a Bay Street only line), although I'm skeptical that's how it played out.  The correct way to not have your plan killed like that is to propose corridors that connect multiple every day destinations.  In the skyway's case, the stadium should have probably been packaged with a northern extension to Shands/Springfield or the Eastside.

[tufsu1]

Had that been built, the vast amount of free parking there could be used during the week, with folks taking the skyway into downtown.

you mean, like they currently have and do near the Prime....except, of yeah, the park & ride is barely used

[Tacachale]

Lake, that's what I hear from folk who were in a position to know. Of course there were other reasons why it didnt get expanded out there later as well. I agree about continuing a stadium line out to neighborhoods would be the thing to do, but connecting the stadium complex to downtown should have been a no brainer.

Tufsu, The stadium complex would have been a lot more parking than that, and it is free during the week - and it was already there when the skyway was built. Currently hundreds of people are parking at the stadium every week and being shuttled in to the courthouse at additional expense.

[thelakelander]

^An extension to a seldom used destination would be difficult to win limited federal dollars when we'd have to compete against communities with projects that better meet FTA requirements for the same funds. 

The original skyway route was supposed to go from Shands Medical Center to the county courthouse.  That would have tied the skyway to two major destinations on either end with the Northbank, Hogans Creek, and Springfield in the middle.  The stadium should have been thrown into that route.  For whatever reasons, the routes changed and the original line ended up going to a seldom used convention center. 

How does a skyway extension to the stadium alone compare with project's like Charlotte's LRT extension, LA's LRT extension to LAX, etc?  Two words: Not good.

CRITERIA
49 USC §5309(d) establishes the criteria under which proposed New Starts projects are evaluated. The FTA evaluates the project justification and the local financial commitment according to the following measures:

Project Justification

Mobility Improvements
- measured by travel time benefits per project passenger mile, low-income households served, and employment near stations.
Environmental Benefits
- measured by change in regional pollutant emissions, change in regional energy consumption, and EPA air quality designation
Cost Effectiveness
- measured as the cost per hour of travel time saved.
Operating Efficiencies
- measured by system operating cost per passenger mile.
Transit Supportive Land Use & Future Patterns
- measured by existing land use, transit supportive plans and policies and performance, and impacts of policies.
Other
- includes a number of optional factors, including the projected economic impact of project.
In addition, SAFETEA-LU adds two criteria - Economic Development and the Reliability of Forecasts.

Local Financial Commitment

The proposed share of total project costs from sources other than 49 USC §5309 New Starts, including federal formula and flexible funds, the local match required by federal law, and any additional capital funding.
The stability and reliability of the proposed capital financing plan.
The ability of the sponsoring agency to fund operations and maintenance of the entire transit system (including existing service) as planned, once the project is built.

http://www.fta.dot.gov/12304_2607.html

If an extension to the stadium is the goal, it needs to be packaged with a more extensive expansion, and we'd need to cover over 25% of the capital costs will local money.  Or we can skip the federal process by paying for it 100% with local dollars.  In any event, if a stadium line ever happens, it will probably be by streetcar now.

[Noone]

  Nevertheless, if a stadium line ever happens, it will probably be by streetcar now.

That is why I'm in total shock as to why the MJers rail team isn't saying anything about the potential streetcar rail line that has now been removed over Hogans Creek. It just seems to me an opportunity lost. Allow the street car line to view the river. We have a blank canvas. What is the plan?

I need to ride the skyway and the Mayport ferry. I'll drive to both.

[thelakelander]

^There's no need to raise cain about it.  That wasn't a streetcar or rail line removed.  It was a bridge used to move equipment around inside of the shipyards property, as opposed to them using Bay Street to get from one end to the other.  It being gone probably helps Hogans Creek more than it hurts it.   Also, a fixed mass transit line would be on Bay Street itself.

[fsujax]

I would not expect any federal money to pay for a Skyway extension, until we have least 100,000 working downtown and at least 10,000 living there. Lake is correct, there is way too much competition for shrinking federal dollars to pay for these projects.

[jcjohnpaint]

so if I may ask... where are we on the streetcar?  You go to the JTA site and there is mentioning of the idea, but really what needs to happen at this point to make this a reality.  Where does Brown stand on this?

[thelakelander]

JTA isn't doing a streetcar (it's not a priority of theirs).  COJ put a funding mechanism for a streetcar (that doesn't "have" to be controlled by JTA) in the mobility plan and fee, which was adopted in Fall 2011.  However, the council placed a moratorium on the fee that is set to expire later this year.  So until then, we're circling the wagons.  As for Brown, he's spoke about wanting an LRT system in Jax, but I doubt that's a priority right now.  At this point, he still hasn't finished revamping city hall's operations.

[Tacachale]

^An extension to a seldom used destination would be difficult to win limited federal dollars when we'd have to compete against communities with projects that better meet FTA requirements for the same funds. 

The original skyway route was supposed to go from Shands Medical Center to the county courthouse.  That would have tied the skyway to two major destinations on either end with the Northbank, Hogans Creek, and Springfield in the middle.  The stadium should have been thrown into that route.  For whatever reasons, the routes changed and the original line ended up going to a seldom used convention center. 

How does a skyway extension to the stadium alone compare with project's like Charlotte's LRT extension, LA's LRT extension to LAX, etc?  Two words: Not good.

CRITERIA
49 USC §5309(d) establishes the criteria under which proposed New Starts projects are evaluated. The FTA evaluates the project justification and the local financial commitment according to the following measures:

Project Justification

Mobility Improvements
- measured by travel time benefits per project passenger mile, low-income households served, and employment near stations.
Environmental Benefits
- measured by change in regional pollutant emissions, change in regional energy consumption, and EPA air quality designation
Cost Effectiveness
- measured as the cost per hour of travel time saved.
Operating Efficiencies
- measured by system operating cost per passenger mile.
Transit Supportive Land Use & Future Patterns
- measured by existing land use, transit supportive plans and policies and performance, and impacts of policies.
Other
- includes a number of optional factors, including the projected economic impact of project.
In addition, SAFETEA-LU adds two criteria - Economic Development and the Reliability of Forecasts.

Local Financial Commitment

The proposed share of total project costs from sources other than 49 USC §5309 New Starts, including federal formula and flexible funds, the local match required by federal law, and any additional capital funding.
The stability and reliability of the proposed capital financing plan.
The ability of the sponsoring agency to fund operations and maintenance of the entire transit system (including existing service) as planned, once the project is built.

http://www.fta.dot.gov/12304_2607.html

If an extension to the stadium is the goal, it needs to be packaged with a more extensive expansion, and we'd need to cover over 25% of the capital costs will local money.  Or we can skip the federal process by paying for it 100% with local dollars.  In any event, if a stadium line ever happens, it will probably be by streetcar now.

The smart thing to do with the skyway now has changed, but back then, the sports complex was much less seldom used than the convention center (especially if they had actually taken it all the way up to Shands). I'm not arguing that an expansion to the sports complex alone is the way to go. But it's abundantly clear the thing won't be successful without expanding it.

so if I may ask... where are we on the streetcar?  You go to the JTA site and there is mentioning of the idea, but really what needs to happen at this point to make this a reality.  Where does Brown stand on this?

Brown hasn't endorsed the streetcar or the other recommendations of his transportation transition committee. It was his committee and he supported expanding public transit during his campaign, so there's hope. But considering he's backed away from some of the more politically risky things he supported in his campaign (notably pushing for LGBT anti-discrimination laws), I wouldn't expect him to do this until he's certain it's a good (or popular) idea.

[cline]

The mobility plan is dead so there is really no funding mechanism to pay for streetcar.  JTA does not care about streetcar (or public transit in general) so they will not be contributing.  So unless someone breaks out their checkbook- streetcar isn't happening anytime soon.