Warehouse district could get new life...

[sheclown]

however, first they must do the battle of the windows.

At the HPC meeting last night, I listened while a business owner talked about his plans to move his thriving business from Mandarin and relocate to Springfield's warehouse district using the landmark located at 2111 Liberty St (the brick building south of the railroad tracks).

This building is significant, architecturally and historically.  It is important b/c it is located in the graveyard of empty warehouses.  This business is important b/c it will be filled with hungry people needing to eat lunch, buy gas, shop at the antique stores, and perhaps buy houses to live in nearby.

But we are getting all tripped up in the old steel windows which yes are important architecturally and yes are covered under all sorts of historic guidelines and yes we all love the old glass BUT, the owner does not want to change the brick facade, does not want to make any changes to this building he appears to love, he just wants to be able to run the heat and the AC without killing him.

We must look at this differently.

If we don't use these buildings, we will lose these buildings.  We must (yes, while honoring the past and the important features as windows) allow businesses a reasonable way to repurpose.  They do not buy these buildings to open a museum.

We have made many mistakes in the past allowing developers to tear down historic structures.  Let's have a sustainable plan to deal with development in our significant structures which both encourages growth and respects preservation.  I believe this man's plan does.

I URGE the HPC to help, not hinder, in the development of the warehouse district.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

This is crazy talk sheclown.  You can't maintain the 'architectural relevance' of a historic building if you start throwing in energy efficient windows all willy-nilly.  I mean, look at the John Gorry re-use / re-fit.  All the money that Delores threw at that old school could have been better spent on hookers and cocaine.  See how the new windows absolutely destroy the historic fabric of a building that is part of a neighborhood's heritage.  All I hear from people is how much they wish that instead of replacing all of those 80 yr old windows they would have like to have seen the building come down and replaced with a nice stucco, boxy tri-story apartment.

I'm sorry.  The only way to properly do this is to tear a building down and replace it with some out-of-place stucco and fake stone structure that you find in your typical office park.  The past is just that - the past.  We're trying to live in the here & now - this is new architecture at it's finest.

[strider]

Non-redneck Westsider, I get your post.  Unfortunately for Springfield, if not all of Jacksonville,  way too many actually feel that way.  Mow down the old and put up the less significant new.  This is why historic guidelines exist.  However, common sense must come into play and compromises must be made or no one will utilize those great warehouses.

The HPC has to realize that if this owner had just moved a block or two away, he could have purchased a historical warehouse just as cool, but we would not be having this conversation.  And this landmark would still be sitting there, one more window broken out of it every day until none were left and the bulldozers showed up with MCCD em-brazened on their sides.

It has been explained to me that the best compromise is one that has both sides leaving the table unhappy.  Neither got exactly what they wanted. 

It is time that HPC stopped hindering a project like this by over discussing the windows and started helping by offering the owner a window solution that may not be as historically correct but gives the nod to the needed efficiency.  If they can't do that, they need to let the owner have his way.

[sheclown]

SPAR's design and review team sided with Joel's office in opposing window replacement even though it is outside of the historic district.

[chris farley]

God - I do not wish to get involved in this discussion and hopefully will not have to be further involved in HPC matters, but thank you Red Neck you are absolutely correct.
This building is an incredible Jacksonville landmark. Go read Wayne Wood's book page 203 (and also pages 228 and 363).  The architect - I quote "Albert Kahn was one of America's foremost architects and this (2111 Liberty) is one of three projects he is known to have designed in Jacksonville. The straightforward exterior reveals the structural system of the building and provides large bands of windows to light the interior".
2111 is a very significant building not just to Springfield but to all of Jacksonville, Kahn also designed the Ford Motor Building. 
Preservation is not just about keeping a building's age it is about keeping and protecting its fabric.  What have we preserved if we have destroyed the character and the original architect's ideas and designs?  If not you may as well demolish the building and start afresh.
Jennifer Mansfield was correct in what she said and suggested last night.  Repairing the windows and keeping the designs are important issues. 

[buckethead]

It occurs to me that the use of new windows fitted within the opening, and inside the existing windows would allow for energy efficiency while allowing the original facade to remain intact.

Not the absolute cheapest way out, but certainly a cost effective compromise.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

God - I do not wish to get involved in this discussion and hopefully will not have to be further involved in HPC matters, but thank you Red Neck you are absolutely correct.
This building is an incredible Jacksonville landmark. Go read Wayne Wood's book page 203 (and also pages 228 and 363).  The architect - I quote "Albert Kahn was one of America's foremost architects and this (2111 Liberty) is one of three projects he is known to have designed in Jacksonville. The straightforward exterior reveals the structural system of the building and provides large bands of windows to light the interior".
2111 is a very significant building not just to Springfield but to all of Jacksonville, Kahn also designed the Ford Motor Building. 
Preservation is not just about keeping a building's age it is about keeping and protecting its fabric.  What have we preserved if we have destroyed the character and the original architect's ideas and designs?  If not you may as well demolish the building and start afresh.
Jennifer Mansfield was correct in what she said and suggested last night.  Repairing the windows and keeping the designs are important issues.

Obviously, you didn't get my post at all. 

[thelakelander]

I haven't really followed this debate but has the building been purchased already?  If not, a simple solution for the buyer is to jump the tracks and purchase on of the other warehouses along East 14th Street.  There's some great building stock there that's just as impressive, imo.  Unfortunately, for the Kahn building, that means it will continue to sit vacant and decay because with this market, saving every component of the structure may not be financially feasible without public assistance.  Other than that, could there be a compromise where a new historically compatible energy efficient window system be installed?

[chris farley]

You are correct Red Neck, I did not I am sorry.  I am sad about the Kahn building and will stay out of it.

[Dog Walker]

"Energy Efficient" windows are a complete waste of money in this climate.  We simply do not have enough cold weather. You can film and weatherstrip old windows for a lot less money and get enough savings in this climate to repay the investment very quickly.  Stopping the air infiltration is the most important.

The " save money with new windows" is a con here.  It would take you twenty or thirty years to recoup the cost involved.  Most of them are so poorly built using vinyl that they won't last that long.  Don't believe the sales pitches.

[thelakelander]

^Then seems like the easiest argument for keeping the old windows would be to have cost comparison estimates done for both, proving that its more financially feasible to keep the existing window system.  The private sector is all about saving money, so if true, I can't imagine the potential owner would still want to spend the extra expense associated with new window replacement.

[chris farley]

Lakelander that is exactly what was asked of the owners last night, it was deferred for figures to be audited.  Jennifer explained explicitly the businesses that specialized in restoration of such windows - there is an industry built around it.   She was excellent and she is a very sincere person who takes her position on the board very seriously.

On the issue of energy efficiency, a past chair of the HPC spoke at an awards presentation a few years back and explained why they wished to keep the old windows, this was a house mind you.  She said you can replace all you old windows and wavy glass with double glazing and you will recoup your costs, in 400 years.

[Dog Walker]

Or maybe 200 is JEA and TECO keep raising their rates!     

[Debbie Thompson]

Interior storm windows...they'll make it more energy efficient, and leave the outside facade of the old windows intact.

[Dog Walker]

+1
And it's not like a business is going to want to open all the windows and let the breezes blow through.