Lost Jacksonville: The Jacksonville Shipyards

[blizz01]

Here's the latest from The Daily Record - not sure if this is the best solution, but I do like who's involved:
Carter envisions entertainment park at Shipyards Downtown

Developer Ben Carter told the Daily Record on Monday that he is talking with Mayor John Peyton about the possibility of developing an entertainment center at the Shipyards property downtown.
Carter, developer of the St. Johns Town Center, said he envisions a wave pool, carousel, ferris wheel, roller coaster, restaurants, arts and seafood markets and other family-friendly attractions on the 40 riverfront acres along East Bay Street.
“I am just sharing with the mayor what I think will work,” said Carter.
Peyton spokesperson Misty Skipper said Tuesday that Carter has shared with Peyton his visions of spurring Downtown development. However, she said nothing could be planned until the City took ownership of the property.
The Shipyards property is wrapped up in bankruptcy proceedings. The City expects to take ownership once the proceedings conclude.
“Obviously he is an expert in retail development, but at this point, we don’t even own the property. But it is part of a conversation we have been having.” said Skipper. “We expect to get that property, but when that occurs, we don’t know yet.”
In a roundtable interview with Daily Record reporters, Carter estimated the development would cost $20 million. He said he did not want to own the property.
Carter is based in Atlanta and lives part-time in the Jacksonville area, he said. He chaired the Retail Task Force that contributed to the City’s 2007 Downtown Action Plan.
He said he has been talking with Peyton to share ideas.
“I have been in talks with him and I came down and volunteered. I said, I did this task force and am half-retired. I love the area. I volunteered to start sharing some ideas with him to see if I can help,” he said.
Carter said downtown development depends on demographics, such as attracting young professionals and families.
He referred to the Wave Waterpark near San Diego and the Celebrations restaurant and club center in Myrtle Beach, S.C., as examples of what might work.
“They are little mini amusement parks with retail and restaurants. It’s really pretty cool,” he said. “I don’t think it’s going to be more than $20 million, but you get a lot of bang for your buck.”
Skipper said the City doesn’t have funding to move forward now, “but it is important to look at opportunities in the future.”

http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=530697

[JeffreyS]

My first thought is great.

[tufsu1]

really?

The Wave Waterpark near San Diego is all the way in Vista, CA (north county)....at least 35 miles from downtown.

Now there is another roller coaster-type attarction on Mission Beach...but that is still over 6 miles from downtown!

[JeffreyS]

If you visit for an NFL game it might keep you downtown.

[reednavy]

I'm definetly not getting my hopes up on this, considering his largest development is stalled in Buckhead right now.

[JeffreyS]

One more thing to make the skyway attractive on Bay.

[stjr]

One more thing to make the skyway attractive on Bay.

I thought the $ky-high-way was an amusement ride!  You mean it isn't? 

Carter, developer of the St. Johns Town Center, said he envisions a wave pool, carousel, ferris wheel, roller coaster, restaurants, arts and seafood markets and other family-friendly attractions on the 40 riverfront acres along East Bay Street.

This idea is not foolproof.  NYC's Coney Island is gone.  Jax had Dixie Land (funny, how old ideas circle back around, huh?) and Jax Beach had a similar arrangement on its boardwalk decades ago and all are long ago history.  Not saying it shouldn't be considered, but proceed with caution.

[strider]

If you visit for an NFL game it might keep you downtown.

Actually, thanks to the way they handle the traffic during games, people might be able to say, "Hey, that looks cool!" as they get directed right on by it.

[cellmaker]

@AaroniusLives, I concur with much of what you're saying.

I also live in DC, having grown up in Southside and Orange Park.  I'm not sure how Jax got lured into equating tall buildings with urban living, but clearly one is not necessary for the other, and as you pointed out, in this case it works against the goal.  DC seems to have almost the perfect density that allows for walkable neighborhoods with retail and commercial, and there's nothing in the city over about 13 stories.

Car dependence is a killer.  If you look at an aerial view of Jax, it just looks like a bunch of parking lots.  Death for a quality urban fabric.  Check out Kunstler's Home from Nowhere (http://www.amazon.com/Home-Nowhere-Remaking-Everyday-Century/dp/0684837374), which gets specific about what makes for a great built environment.

Building "amusement parks" downtown also is just an amateurish way of going about things.  The idea that the guy who developed the St. Johns Town Center, which is nothing but an outdoor mall you drive to, knows anything about building an urbanscape is ludicrous.  Wave pools, if needed at all, come after you have grocery stores and dry cleaners and restaurants and clothing stores, not before.

My only real beef with your post is about the Skyway.  It suffers from not going anywhere, true, but what it needs is expansion, not demolition.  The low-rise neighborhoods of San Marco and Five Points would be great tie-ins with the skyway.  (I finally took it when I was home visiting family earlier this year and thought it was pretty great.  I just wanted to take it to Riverside.)  Also, it should continue north into Springfield, tying in with the Hospital complex on 8th. 

Basically, Jax lacks vision and guts.  What a beautiful river.  What a great beach.  What nice people.  What a joke of a city.  Shame, that, because it could be a fantastic place.

[MusicMan]

Great post. The last two or three sentences really hit the nail on the head. I would add that if this city ever fulfills it's potential it will be because someone from out of town made it happen. The "good old boy" network had it's shot and they blew it.

[Noone]

Great post. The last two or three sentences really hit the nail on the head. I would add that if this city ever fulfills it's potential it will be because someone from out of town made it happen. The "good old boy" network had it's shot and they blew it.

I agree. Anyone going to the USS Adams fundraiser tonight? I hope they are successful and raise 20+ million for the project but this could be the next piece of the puzzle for the Jacksonville Shipyards. 2010-675 and just one amendment.

The new park, flex space, entertainment district, special events area, DIA, DDA, DEA, whatever new Authority zone area that has yet to be created before or after redistricting and voted on by city council will they keep the Promised 680' Downtown Public Pier outside the total govt. control that is attempting to be created. I hope so.

Lost Jacksonville:
FIND Jacksonville: Florida Inland Navigation District

[AaroniusLives]

@AaroniusLives, I concur with much of what you're saying.

I also live in DC, having grown up in Southside and Orange Park.  I'm not sure how Jax got lured into equating tall buildings with urban living, but clearly one is not necessary for the other, and as you pointed out, in this case it works against the goal.  DC seems to have almost the perfect density that allows for walkable neighborhoods with retail and commercial, and there's nothing in the city over about 13 stories.

Car dependence is a killer.  If you look at an aerial view of Jax, it just looks like a bunch of parking lots.  Death for a quality urban fabric.  Check out Kunstler's Home from Nowhere (http://www.amazon.com/Home-Nowhere-Remaking-Everyday-Century/dp/0684837374), which gets specific about what makes for a great built environment.

Building "amusement parks" downtown also is just an amateurish way of going about things.  The idea that the guy who developed the St. Johns Town Center, which is nothing but an outdoor mall you drive to, knows anything about building an urbanscape is ludicrous.  Wave pools, if needed at all, come after you have grocery stores and dry cleaners and restaurants and clothing stores, not before.

My only real beef with your post is about the Skyway.  It suffers from not going anywhere, true, but what it needs is expansion, not demolition.  The low-rise neighborhoods of San Marco and Five Points would be great tie-ins with the skyway.  (I finally took it when I was home visiting family earlier this year and thought it was pretty great.  I just wanted to take it to Riverside.)  Also, it should continue north into Springfield, tying in with the Hospital complex on 8th. 

Basically, Jax lacks vision and guts.  What a beautiful river.  What a great beach.  What nice people.  What a joke of a city.  Shame, that, because it could be a fantastic place.

Cellmaker, I just took a job in Baltimore, so in March, I'm moving over to this side of the megapolis.

Baltimore is a great example of both what to do and what not to do regarding downtown redevelopment. The Inner Harbor, which is essentially a collection of amusement activities (many cultural, to be fair,) is awesome for the city...to a degree. It encouraged high wealth to gentrify the areas surrounding the Inner Harbor, and it encouraged both the preservation and the redevelopment of those adjacent areas, like Fells Point, Canton, and Federal Hill. It also, quite possibly, made the 'flip' happen along the .5 mile from the water back, with the development of Harbor East.

But...Baltimore also built a ton of skyscrapers/high rises over the last forty years, because "skyscraper=city," which helped to hollow out the rest of the city, and has resulted in a downtown with a lot of vacant office space. (There are other factors at work here, including racism, ridiculous taxes, entrenched corruption, etc.) However, what Baltimore does right is that they actively restore and re-use their historical buildings, even old office buildings get re-used as apartments or condos. So while Baltimore's businesses move away to the 'burbs, and while the poor die-off/get shot, leaving less population, the new population moving in has more money, more 'urbanism' and more interest in creating a new city.

Truth be told, I'm actually wary of moving to Baltimore City. I think there's like 10 years of vomiting out the crack before it comes back (it might be the ONLY city in the world where gays can't flip a 'hood.) So I might move to Baltimore County. But, even there, it's pretty historically minded, pretty focused on transit, and just pretty damned pretty, all around. In a lot of ways, Jacksonville is hampered by it's hybrid status, as a old, industrial city and a new, FloriDUHHH city. If Jacksonville were located in the Northeast, a lot of it's old factories, silos, buildings and the rest would have been redeveloped into lofts, shops and the rest. But, because it's also a FloriDUHH city, there's a penchant to just mow it all over and put up a Wal-Mart (how South Beach escaped that fate is a wonder for the ages.) And thus, so much historical fabric in Jax is gone or neglected. Sad. (There's also something to the absurd need for Jax to be 'the biggest city in Florida,' and thus, there's a lot of oversized development for the MSA. Minneapolis is the same way: lots of stuff that's too big for the metro area, and thus, it feels quite 'Walking Dead.')

As for the Skyway, I have nothing against the transit in and of itself. And I used to take Miami's version of this to my magnet high school back in the day. But there are much more cost-effective ways/still premium ways to create the service that the Skyway provides. Tampa's TECO streetcar is MUCH less expensive to operate, build and run, for example. Baltimore's light rail might be another example. Calling on Miami's Metromover again, it took them a decade to get the ridership they have now. It cost something like $600 million (to expand it, so that doesn't include the original line.) And Miami also had Manny Suarez as the mayor, and actual visionary who cut the red tape in order to get something like 80,000 units of housing built downtown. Plus, it's free. BUT...it's still not cost-effective. Miami is STILL contemplating building light rail and/or streetcars in lieu of expanding the Metromover, because airport peoplemovers in a real-work environment are damned expensive! 

[tufsu1]

There are plenty of very nice (and progressive) neighborhoods in Baltimore...in fact, unless I was looking at predominantly single family neighboroods, I'd choose to live in Baltimore City over DC itself.