Lost Jacksonville: The Jacksonville Shipyards

[AaroniusLives]

I worked on the advertising for LandMar's Shipyards development, and it was quite a plan they had going there. From their perspective, they were going to use their expertise in "experiential" development to create this mixed-use, semi-public/semi-private community.

http://amgordonwriter.info/uploads/ShipyardsThisChangesEverything.jpg

There was two problems with the plan as we saw it. In the first place, there's not really a large amount of pent-up demand for urban living in Downtown Jax...so we'd all have to create that demand. The next problem is obvious: downtown Jacksonville is full of empty plots of land...and isn't really a "downtown" area. There's just not enough critical mass in the core. While Shipards would have perhaps added some retail and residential to that depressed core...we were also selling a cosmopolitan lifestyle in a vibrant downtown that really didn't exist (or, at least, hasn't existed in Jacksonville since the 1950s.)

I've been exploring this site for the past two days, and it's pretty cool. I'm a former Miamian myself, so it's nice to see some interesting perspectives on a region even more screwed up than South Florida. Some interesting observations:
1. The mistake regarding your downtown is in wanting higher, taller buildings (indeed: it's the mistake made by the landowners jacking up the price and the "skyscrapercity.com" folk.) I currently live in DC, where there's nary a high-rise...but tons of real, urban life. And trees! I have nothing against the skyscraper, but many of them are not pedestrian or street friendly. Heck, I lived in Atlanta (where I worked on Shipyards,) in a 50 story building that required me to drive everywhere.

2. The reason South Florida is so dense involves geography, not a "desire for urbanity." Mass transit in every city south of DC sucks. Miami's especially sucks, is especially broke, and is run by especially corrupt people who have stole billions from the public till. Plus, it goes nowhere you want it to go and not in style. So, while Miami may have verticality and may be adopting some great urban principles (finally,) it's because they are 'done' with the build out of land...they have no choice BUT to build up...

3. ...this ties into my JAX moment. Use the DC model, which is a variation of the Paris model. It doesn't have to be vertical to be downtown. It has to be livable and beautiful. Instead of trying to get 5000 people to live in 8 high-rises while the rest of downtown looks like a moonscape, get them to move into a series of city blocks no more than 6 stories tall. The moonscape vanishes and the streets flourish.

4. In my meetings with LandMar, I noticed a very odd thing about Jacksonville...it's essentially this large place that's empty. Having moved from Miami to Tampa to Fort Lauderdale to Atlanta and DC, I was always struck by the "overbuilt" aspect of Jacksonville. A skyway to nowhere. A massive airport nowhere near capacity. A downtown festival marketplace twice the size of Miami's Bayside and always 1/4 as full. Outside of the core: malls with tons of space and not tons of people. I'm sure this is changing dramatically fast with your high population growth rate...but remember, you have tons of land and a market demanding suburban-style living. Before they over-run Duval and the counties that make up your MSA, you have to convince them that there's another alternative that doesn't look like NYC. Use DC as the model and densify horizontally.

[thelakelander]

That yacht in the picture may have been at the Merrill-Stevens yard for repairs, but it was not built there.  It is a Feadship and they are built in Holland.

The Gallant Lady, the JM Enterprises yacht, that has been in Jax for the past week or so for the game is also a Feadship.

I just yanked a photo off the web.  However, they do build and repair yachts in Miami.

[fsu813]

oh, densifying horizontally is not the problem. noone is rushing to build skyscrapers here. it's that the densifying is happening on Gate Parkway instead of Downtown.

[thelakelander]

I worked on the advertising for LandMar's Shipyards development, and it was quite a plan they had going there. From their perspective, they were going to use their expertise in "experiential" development to create this mixed-use, semi-public/semi-private community.

http://amgordonwriter.info/uploads/ShipyardsThisChangesEverything.jpg

There was two problems with the plan as we saw it. In the first place, there's not really a large amount of pent-up demand for urban living in Downtown Jax...so we'd all have to create that demand. The next problem is obvious: downtown Jacksonville is full of empty plots of land...and isn't really a "downtown" area. There's just not enough critical mass in the core. While Shipards would have perhaps added some retail and residential to that depressed core...we were also selling a cosmopolitan lifestyle in a vibrant downtown that really didn't exist (or, at least, hasn't existed in Jacksonville since the 1950s.)

I thought LandMar's and the city's focus on downtown living was off too.  The demand for urban living isn't luxury, its market rate.  The path to downtown vibrancy should be making the place more attractive to urban pioneers to add culture and life to the city.  When it is a vibrant place, the luxury market will come on its own.

4. In my meetings with LandMar, I noticed a very odd thing about Jacksonville...it's essentially this large place that's empty. Having moved from Miami to Tampa to Fort Lauderdale to Atlanta and DC, I was always struck by the "overbuilt" aspect of Jacksonville. A skyway to nowhere. A massive airport nowhere near capacity. A downtown festival marketplace twice the size of Miami's Bayside and always 1/4 as full. Outside of the core: malls with tons of space and not tons of people. I'm sure this is changing dramatically fast with your high population growth rate...but remember, you have tons of land and a market demanding suburban-style living. Before they over-run Duval and the counties that make up your MSA, you have to convince them that there's another alternative that doesn't look like NYC. Use DC as the model and densify horizontally.

Good advice!

[stjr]

3. ...this ties into my JAX moment. Use the DC model, which is a variation of the Paris model. It doesn't have to be vertical to be downtown. It has to be livable and beautiful. Instead of trying to get 5000 people to live in 8 high-rises while the rest of downtown looks like a moonscape, get them to move into a series of city blocks no more than 6 stories tall. The moonscape vanishes and the streets flourish.

... you have to convince them that there's another alternative that doesn't look like NYC. Use DC as the model and densify horizontally.

AaroniusLives, welcome.  Your post is timely as I just started a thread in this vain on MJ yesterday titled  "Top 10 Things to Make DOWN-town a BOOM-town"  at: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,6638.0.html .

I think you will find most of my suggestions are in the spirit of your recommendations, i.e making people WANT to live downtown because it has the livability amenities they are looking for.  Much of this is the little things that make life convenient such as recreation areas, an assortment of everyday stores and services (drug store, grocery store, cleaners, car repair, gas station, beauty and barber shops, schools, doctor offices, etc.), schools, and ease and reliability of movement (such as great sidewalks, street cars, and buses).

With our continuing lack of retail frontage, there aren't many opportunities for these places.  Such retail spaces need to be incorporated into larger buildings serving other purposes due to the value of the land.  It's sickening to see how many parking garages we have with little or no ground level retail.  Nor do many of our high rises.  This becomes a chicken and egg issue.

We also need wide open play areas and schools for families to move downtown.  No kid is going to be happy with out a playing field to run around on or do Little League.  Using the Shipyards property would even give families a fishing pier.  Won't find that in most suburban communities!  Neighborhood schools would be a master stroke.  Families would do much to live within a short distance of a quality school wherever it's located.  This alone could attract hundreds of families downtown.  The school playgrounds could double as neighborhood playgrounds as well.

I did push for policies making high rise residential living more appealing versus urban sprawl developments but, perhaps, what I should have said was to make high DENSITY housing downtown more appealing.  Aside from that, I think we may be on the same page.  Take a look and add your comments.  Thanks again.

[Dog Walker]

Ashville, North Carolina, although much smaller than Jax, is a good example of "low rise" downtown revitalization.  There are dozens of two and three story buildings with lots of small restaurants, bars, dry cleaners, boutiques, galleries, shoe repair shops, etc.etc. with lofts, condos and apartments above them.  There is life on the streets almost 24/7.

It doesn't take thirty story towers to make a vibrant downtown.

[stjr]

Ashville, North Carolina, although much smaller than Jax, is a good example of "low rise" downtown revitalization.  There are dozens of two and three story buildings with lots of small restaurants, bars, dry cleaners, boutiques, galleries, shoe repair shops, etc.etc. with lofts, condos and apartments above them.  There is life on the streets almost 24/7.

It doesn't take thirty story towers to make a vibrant downtown.

See also most of Charleston and Savannah and a good part of New Orleans.

[Dan B]

Very few cities have more than a few sky scrapers. I would love to see new scrapers going up, but I would rather see our broken tooth smile of a downtown filled in with 2 and 3 story buildings.

Right now between the Shell Station and the bridge, there is only one place with a door facing Main Street. I would like to see that change too.

[billy]

An enormous opportunity was wasted with the wholesale clearing of La Villa, not to mention Brooklyn.
Many of these buildings would have been perfect small scale candidates for reuse, and would have provided redevelopment connectivity between Riverside and Downtown.

[thelakelander]

Not LaVilla.  It was a coordinated demolition derby and one that Jax should be ashamed of.

[Ocklawaha]

Nice article and even better pictures, but what does this have to do with SPAR or rail?

Absolutely Nothing! Right!

WRONG!

When the Fernandina and Jacksonville railroad was opened from Yulee - Oceanway - Springfield - Jacksonville, after the War of Yankee Aggression, they established extensive terminals, docks on the River, and a railroad station about where Maxwell House sits today.



The F&J was purchased by the Seaboard Air Line RR, after they built across the state line near Kingsland, connecting with the Florida Central and Peninsular RR, at Yulee for Callahan - Baldwin - Gainesville - Cedar Key, as well as a new "branchline," to a tiny bayside town called Tampa. The FC&P also had owned through a purchase of it's own, the railroad from Jacksonville - Baldwin - Lake City - Tallahassee - River Junction. One of the first orders of business, to consolidate the new and far flung Seaboard Routes, was to create a connection within Jacksonville between the former F&J and the Jacksonville - Baldwin mainline. By 1894 Seaboard was in firm control of Jacksonville's Railroading, the segments were later merged into the parent company in 1903.

The "S" line is a direct result of the mergers and the widely separated segments between Springfield and Jacksonville Union Station, which by the late 90's was already one of the busier terminals in America. Taking the "S" from Springfield, roughly alongside 20Th Street to Moncrief Road, and hence South into the Station was a master stroke. North of Springfield, past the old Imeson Air Base/Airport, Oceanway, Fernandina and all the way to Richmondl, the Seaboard anchored an Empire on the little railroad to the docks.



In 1897, the Atlantic, Valdosta and Western Railroad was chartered as a short - line between Valdosta and the Port of Jacksonville. The "S" effectively blocked the newbie from Port Access, and it wasn't highly likely they would be let in around the foot of Broad Street either. In 1902, the property was merged with several other lines to form the Georgia, Southern and Florida RR. This company then spun off a privately held shortline from it's yard in Grand Crossing, directly into Springfield, ending up at the Seaboards old F&J line, right where their "S" Line joined. Called the St. Johns River Terminal Railroad, the new railroad finally got across the Seaboards tracks.

In those wild days of railroading, like a game of chess, many a railroad would build just to block the other player. There were two ways around this, they could go to the State and plead their case, which usually ended up in the hands of a court friendly to the oldest and most moneyed carrier. The other was to reach the crossing, file the paperwork, then in the dead of night, throw down the needed crossing before sunrise. A loophole in the law allowed the railroad domain, once it was on the ground. Thus the G.S.& F. was safely able to enter the terminals, mills and warehousing of today's Talleyrand Docks area. They also split off a branch which cleverly followed the old F&J, only 50' to the west, from Springfield to the St. Johns River. Seaboard was something of a block bully and they were beaten at their own game. When in a short time the G.S & F. sold out to the Southern Ry., from the Maxwell House area they had almost exclusive access to the downtown docks.



When the Shipyards went up and in the Great War and World War II, both railroads were well positioned to take care of Jacksonville Ship building and repair. We launched around 100 large ships during WWII, and hundreds more landing craft, (at Huckins Yacht on the Ortega River). These railroads survived into the modern era of NS and CSX, and the last rails didn't come up until the industry was gone.

But perhaps that's not the end of our story Civil, consider that these two companies left us track and right-of-ways, ready made for Light Rail, from Bay or Beaver St. to Springfield, Gateway Mall, Shand's, Oceanway, Yulee, Kingsland.

YOU ASKED FOR IT!

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

Not LaVilla.  It was a coordinated demolition derby and one that Jax should be ashamed of.

the statement was obviously facetious

Sadly, in terms of historic PRE-FIRE fabric, the destruction of Fairfield, was probably even worse!

OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

Nice article and even better pictures, but what does this have to do with SPAR or rail?

Civil, you just had to ask?!! 

[mtraininjax]

I love riding by FL 2 alongside the GS&F. Its a cool ride.

[JaxNative68]

how many millions of taxpayer dollars has the city pissed away on the shipyards site in the last 10 years.  If my count is right it is about 8, and we have nothing to show for it.