Jacksonville mayor comes out against new toll road

[thelakelander]

Personally, I don't think we need a new plan for downtown.  Based on what has worked in other communities, I'd like to see some policies that restrict innovation and creativity removed/modified to let the free market take control of downtown.   That seems to be more fiscal responsible and effective than....say rounding up a $150 million to sink in a convention center with the belief that such a project will lead to DT vibrancy and revitalization.

Even on this website there are a lot of posts that I would consider to be anti-planning.  That's probably because the planning process around here has been subverted on behalf of a handful of self-proclaimed leaders.

Nevertheless, this comment you made, reads to me like you're claiming this Metro Jacksonville site is somehow subverting planning processes from happening.  So if you really believe that, I'm asking you to cite some actual examples.  If that's not what you were saying, then I simply misunderstood the comment.

[Dashing Dan]

With what you said about the need for a downtown plan, you've answered your own question.

Do you also think that we've already done enough planning for the streetcar?

[thelakelander]

No. The planning process is ongoing. Also, I'm not following your assumption that I'm stopping an entire community from properly planning its future by voicing my opinion on a website.

[north miami]

True, but how do you stop it?  I'm all ears.

Caution. Beltway Boosters monitoring MJ for any hint of potential trouble.

[Dashing Dan]

No. The planning process is ongoing. Also, I'm not following your assumption that I'm stopping an entire community from properly planning its future by voicing my opinion on a website.

The reason why you're  not following that assumption is because I am not making that assumption.

Opinions on a website are fine and dandy, but some of the opinions that have been posted about planning are alarming to me as a planner.  For example, I find it very hard to imagine how anyone could think that we don't need a new plan for downtown.  The plan we have is obviously not working and even if it was working it's got to be more than ten years old by now.  And what has that got to do with the likely cost of a new downtown convention center?

[north miami]

True, but how do you stop it?  I'm all ears.

Caution. Beltway Boosters monitoring MJ for any hint of potential trouble.

[tufsu1]

True, but how do you stop it?  I'm all ears.

Caution. Beltway Boosters monitoring MJ for any hint of potential trouble.

ok..my turn to sound like Lake...care to explain?

[thelakelander]

No. The planning process is ongoing. Also, I'm not following your assumption that I'm stopping an entire community from properly planning its future by voicing my opinion on a website.

The reason why you're  not following that assumption is because I am not making that assumption.

Opinions on a website are fine and dandy, but some of the opinions that have been posted about planning are alarming to me as a planner.  For example, I find it very hard to imagine how anyone could think that we don't need a new plan for downtown.

Its only alarming because you tend to beat around the bush on complex issues, ask open ended questions and make tunnel visioned responses to the answers you get.  Maybe its just learning how to properly explain a position or viewpoint through the internet but your quoted post is a great example of this.  Now let me explain.

You asked for my opinion on if we need a new downtown plan, however you provide little to no detail on why the question is asked and what a new downtown plan should achieve or how extensive what's floating around in your head actually is.

The answer you received from me, then comes from a viewpoint of what are we trying to ultimately achieve in downtown.  At the end of the day, I think everyone will universally agree that we'd like to see a vibrant walkable downtown core with a 24/7 atmosphere.  If that's the case, no offense to you but I don't think entrepreneurs like triclops i, marksjax or ronchamblin need a Dashing Dan or a lakelander to come up with a downtown plan to tell them how to properly operate their businesses or specify what specific locations they should be required to open in.  Judging from continued feedback from the private sector over the years, my own experience and revitalization efforts in other communities, public sector regulations and policies need to modified to allow innovation and creativity from the free market to take control.

With that said, if you asked if the city should develop a plan for it's properties and policies, I'd say yes, you need a citywide plan, not just downtown (since downtown isn't an island unto itself).

The plan we have is obviously not working and even if it was working it's got to be more than ten years old by now.

What you mention is actually apart of the problem.  Several city's plans are well over 30 years now and their downtowns are now vibrant because of their willingness to stick with a vision. 

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-apr-lakelands-green-treasure-lake-mirror-park

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-jul-elements-of-urbanism-baltimore

So what if the current plan is 10 years old?  Have you ever considered that perhaps somethings have not worked because they have never been implemented (ex. the current plan's suggestion of two-waying streets)?  Our problem is every new guy wants a new plan every 4 to 8 years instead of attempting to actually stick to one and implement what it says.  So instead of completely throwing out the current plan, why not find solutions to implement its recommendations?  By suggesting scrapping everything and starting over by getting a whole bunch of Dashing Dans in the room again to daydream is nothing more than a tragic repeat of failed policies and a joke to business owners who've already have their financial skin in the game.

And what has that got to do with the likely cost of a new downtown convention center?

If you followed the mayor's race, the transition team recommendations and the civic council's suggested downtown plan, you'll discover that many believe we need a revitalization plan that calls for dropping +$100 million into a convention center.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-feb-the-jacksonville-civic-councils-plans-for-downtown

Thus, I used it as an example of something that would most likely come out of a downtown re-planning process that will get less public ROI than simply modifying policies and regulations to allow small businesses to succeed.  So framed from this viewpoint and understanding our economic climate, I don't see why it would be hard to imagine someone in the planning industry believing that we don't need to repeat the failed recycled ideas of the past to bring revitalization to downtown and the surrounding neighborhoods.  Let's try something different and get out the way for change.

[Dashing Dan]

 It's not all that complicated.  You asked me for an example and then you gave me a good one.

[thelakelander]

Cool.  I'm glad I could better explain my view which goes against the point that this site subverts planning into a meaningless exercise.  It's pretty clear that collaborative planning has been going on for decades on just about all the topics discussed on this site, from fixed transit to downtown redevelopment.  Let's find ways to actually move forward in a manner that positively impacts the quality of life and economic health of the city instead of drawing up more sketches with crayons.

[Dashing Dan]

I used to be alarmed.  Now I'm exasperated.

[tufsu1]

welcome to the club

[north miami]

Think of the tangled web,complexity-lift out of exasperation to fascination.Study.

For instance,consider Matt Carlucci.Alvin Brown campaign supporter.
Matt's father,Senator Joe Carlucci became an ardent Brannon Chaffee booster.

Long established and representing St Johns County,Senator Joe Carlucci was faced with Redistrict area that would include Clay County.Joe's first response,as noted in the press,was "...over my dead body!"
Well,it happened and Senator Carlucci soon joined lockstep with Brannon Chaffe boosters.This was the era of Brannon Chaffee as much needed North South Arterial and Blanding Blvd. "alleviation" sales pitch.
Blanding Blvd. of course compromised by the same local government forces,the same faces!....that were promoting Brannon Chaffee and yes- clear understanding as to Beltway or Jax/Tampa.

Matt Carlucci largey holds the similar future roadway outlook.It's generational.Same with Alberta Hipps.I have seen the dynamic at work.

In fact there is a curious Brannon Chaffee connection to other area State Farm agents.
State Farm agent Larry Fuller of Orange Park was notably different and in fact made run for Clay County Commission seat based in part on BC concerns.He didn't lose by much.

Brannon Chaffee funding aspirations largely failed during the Joe Carlucci era.
Duval Delegation at times skeptical of funding,some even got it on the erroneous "alleviation" claims.
The stars would eventually allign with BC Boosters with Horne,Thrasher,King.
King close friends with one who would end up speculative owner of a chunk of the 1900acre Trust For Public Lands BC option parcel.

The players,the influences vast.And fascinating.

[tufsu1]

so now the expressway is a big State Farm insurance conspiracy?

[north miami]

no conspiracy.Just a piece of the puzzle for discerning observers,participants.

"Conspiracy" word has become loaded down,employed in a manner to attempt to discredit

conspiracy properly reserved for Planner & Consultant,Lake Asbury Sector Plan round one of two