Jacksonville mayor comes out against new toll road

[north miami]

  Sticking a toll on this street, without writing Jacksonville taxpayers a refund check is essentially double taxing.

yet another sordid Brannon Chaffee Beltway chapter heading

[Ocklawaha]

Yeah, toll roads are good... Uh? Maybe not! The USA has 214 million motor vehicles and some 3.9 million miles of roads.  We have enough roadway to circle the Earth at the equator 157 times, add to that parking for 214 million cars . To visualize this consider that the total area covered in roads and parking is estimated to be a little over 61,000 square miles. The United States has put down enough asphalt and concrete to completely bury 8 northeastern states:

Maryland           12,407 sq mi
Massachusetts   10,555 sq mi 
Vermont            9,615 sq mi 
New Hampshire  9,350 sq mi 
New Jersey        8,722 sq mi 
Connecticut       5,544 sq mi
Delaware           2,489 sq mi 
Rhode Island      1,545 sq mi
TOTAL AREA     60,227 SQUARE MILES

Guess where little Florida ranks in road mileage?

Road Miles by State: Sorted from Most to Least

STATE

TOTAL LANE MILES

Texas
654,923

California
386,604

Illinois
292,789

Kansas
286,642

Minnesota
283,828

Missouri
268,201

Florida  7Th ranked in total road mileagle but number 22 out of 50 in size (square miles)
267,793

Ohio
261,653

Georgia
257,077

Michigan
255,924

Yeah Rick, looks like a real deficiency to me, lets pave Duval and Clay! You know Rick, it's all about the Port and all of those ships that dock at Cecil Field, and all of those thousands of trucks that can't use I-10 or I-295 to find I-95 south. Of course it could be that gridlock of truckers trying to get to Middleburg from the Commerce Center. Rick please tell me how much money it will make, I don't want my dollars going to subsidize somebody's ride in a car. Don't forsee a profit? Oh I know Rick, your an idiot!

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

Florida  7Th ranked in total road mileagle but number 22 out of 50 in size (square miles)
267,793

sorry but size in square miles is of little relevance....Florida is the 4th most popuulous state, which means we would need much more road mileage than a state like Alaska

[cline]

I just received an email from the Clay County Chamber of Commerce urging people to send an email to Rick Scott in support of the Outer Beltway.  It states he is contempleting pulling the state's support for it.  They even go as far as to provide a handy email template to send to Scott outlining why the Outer Beltway is important.  These are the reasons they list:

o   to provide much needed connectivity and increase mobility of people and goods
o   to add capacity for safety during hurricane evacuations/disasters
o   to preserve the quality of the natural environment
o   to stimulate quality jobs and economic prosperity

I was just wondering how exactly building the Outer Beltway preserves the quality of the natural environment?

[Debbie Thompson]

Can't see how it would help in emergency evacuations.  Wouldn't they all ultimately funnel into an already-clogged I-95/I-10 like they did in Hurricane Floyd?  Best I can see is that it would get them to the traffic jam a little faster.  The connectivity is already there, the plan is just to make it bigger and more expensive.  So, with 1, 2 and 3 shot down, I think we are really talking about a few years of temporary jobs while the road is built, followed by more suburban sprawl.

[wsansewjs]

Sticking a toll on this street, without writing Jacksonville taxpayers a refund check is essentially double taxing.

That is my conclusion from reading over 7 pages of this very thread.

-Josh

[copperfiend]

I just received an email from the Clay County Chamber of Commerce urging people to send an email to Rick Scott in support of the Outer Beltway.  It states he is contempleting pulling the state's support for it.  They even go as far as to provide a handy email template to send to Scott outlining why the Outer Beltway is important.  These are the reasons they list:

o   to provide much needed connectivity and increase mobility of people and goods
o   to add capacity for safety during hurricane evacuations/disasters
o   to preserve the quality of the natural environment
o   to stimulate quality jobs and economic prosperity

I was just wondering how exactly building the Outer Beltway preserves the quality of the natural environment?

The email template was probably written by KB, Pulte, SEDA and every other builder in the area. Not to mention the heavily construction influenced local tea party.

[duvaldude08]

All I here is from Clay County is Spwarl, Spwarl, Spwarl. Sounds like they have selfish reasons for wanting this to happen.

[Ocklawaha]

Florida  7Th ranked in total road mileagle but number 22 out of 50 in size (square miles)
267,793

sorry but size in square miles is of little relevance....Florida is the 4th most popuulous state, which means we would need much more road mileage than a state like Alaska

Why then is New York's highway mileage not greater then ours? No excuses TU, most of Florida's population is found within 3 quite narrow strips of land Central, Southeast, Southwest, with vast miles of land that is not buildable or highly restricted. Too many roads is too many roads and it's time we look at alternatives.

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

At first we might have thought that we could get tourists from out of state to pay more than their share of our infrastructure costs.

Actually Dan, you might be onto something. I propose we install $25 dollar toll booths at all border crossings, exempting only border locals. We'll use the extra money to pave Orange County.

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

Can't see how it would help in emergency evacuations.  Wouldn't they all ultimately funnel into an already-clogged I-95/I-10 like they did in Hurricane Floyd? 

as a result of Floyd, the state developed reverse lane strategies....as an example, I-10 west of I-295 can now be 4/6 lanes westbound in an evacuation.

[tufsu1]

Why then is New York's highway mileage not greater then ours?

because while land size (in square miles) doesn't matter, density (as in persons per square mile) does.

and, btw....Florida will likely pass NY in total population in the next 5 years

[Dashing Dan]

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/400669/larry-hannan/2011-08-31/rick-scott-rethinking-plans-toll-first-coast-outer

UPDATE: Brown spokesman Abel Harding confirms that the mayor did talk to Scott about the Outer Beltway earlier this week. Brown expressed concern about bring tolls back. But Harding also said Brown understands he's not in charge of this project, and can't stop it.

If FDOT had been all gung-ho for building it in the first place, it would have been completed a long time ago.  Now that the market for new single family homes has all but dried up, it makes even less sense now.

[Ocklawaha]

Why then is New York's highway mileage not greater then ours?

because while land size (in square miles) doesn't matter, density (as in persons per square mile) does.

and, btw....Florida will likely pass NY in total population in the next 5 years

Thank you TU, you made my point, DENSITY MATTERS and less mindless road building through whatever is left of virgin Florida land will equal more DENSITY and less sprawl. A focus on mass transit will better serve a dense population then a 2 lane asphalt strip.

OCKLAWAHA

[Dashing Dan]

I have no problem with tolls other than the fact that they aren't high enough. 

If the toll is punitive and if it works, then the total revenue from the toll goes way down, and the economic justification for the road is taken away.  London has a "toll" for cars entering its central area.  NYC tried to impose its own "toll" but it failed, mainly due to opposition from voters in the outer boroughs (Queens, Brooklyn, The Bronx, and Staten Island).