Skyway Could Be Torn Down.....In 2036!

[thelakelander]

This train wrap proposal was rejected by the TTC.

Ashley Madison, the perennially controversial and perpetually amoral dating website for people looking to cheat on their spouses, aimed to wrap one streetcar in a massive end-to-end purple adâ€"”LIFE IS SHORT. HAVE AN AFFAIR.”â€"for twenty-eight days starting on January 11, 2010. So the Toronto-based company struck a deal with CBS Outdoor, the ad agency that handles the TTC’s advertising for buys like this, for $12,500, plus $30,000 for production of the wrap by vinyl graphics supplier Autograph Trim. (If the campaign were paying off, a representative of the company told Torontoist this morning, they’d extend it to five cars in February.) One condition in that contract, obtained by Torontoist, states that “The Transit Authority is the sole and final arbiter of creative. If intended creative content is controversial in any way, transit approval must be obtained before proceeding with production.”

full article: http://beta.torontoist.com/2009/12/ttc_rejects_ashley_madison_ads/

[Dashing Dan]

So unless we make driving much more expensive than it already is now, transit is just for people who will be forced to accept whatever services we choose to make available to them? 

I didn't say that.....but, even with a robust transit syetm, the reality is Jax. will be lucky to have 30% of transit riders be choice riders.

You wrote that in both big and small cities, 2/3 of transit users are captive riders. 

If you want to change my mind you'll need to cite some sources for that.

[jcjohnpaint]

So unless we make driving much more expensive than it already is now, transit is just for people who will be forced to accept whatever services we choose to make available to them? 

I didn't say that.....but, even with a robust transit syetm, the reality is Jax. will be lucky to have 30% of transit riders be choice riders.

I think the trick is to make the experience worth the ride in reason and convenience and the people of Jax will be sold.  We just have not had a good transit system to convince our citizens otherwise. 

[manasia]

Thats typical Jacksonville leadership mentality isn't it. Build something half-assed, don't maintain what you do have, then wonder why no one is using it.

+1 - Good Point

[thelakelander]

I don't think we even need to waste our time selling "the people of Jax" on transit.  From my view, the people of Jax are no different than the people of Charlotte, Nashville, Birmingham, Norfolk or any other similar sized peer community.  Some will use viable mass transit and some won't, plain and simple.  If we can get the basics right, we'll have a ridership base that will utilize it and grow over time as more and more TOD comes online.

[Dashing Dan]

I don't think we even need to waste our time selling "the people of Jax" on transit.  From my view, the people of Jax are no different than the people of Charlotte, Nashville, Birmingham, Norfolk or any other similar sized peer community.  Some will use viable mass transit and some won't, plain and simple.  If we can get the basics right, we'll have a ridership base that will utilize it and grow over time as more and more TOD comes online.

+1

[tufsu1]

You wrote that in both big and small cities, 2/3 of transit users are captive riders. 
If you want to change my mind you'll need to cite some sources for that.

I'll post some stats tomorrow

[Charles Hunter]

Why would Streetcar O&M be higher on a daily basis than O&M for the Skyway?  Each street car needs an operator, two or three operators (guessing here - even if it 5 or 6) can operate the entire Skyway system.

I'm seeing conflicting arguments here, and I don't know if the same folks are making both sides of it.  One one hand, people here have argued to spread out bus departure times, to better provide reasonable headways, instead of having them all bunched up.  Then there is the argument to make sure the buses meet at the same time - or within a few minutes - to make transfers easier (shorter waits).

[thelakelander]

^Charles, based on the O&M costs of recent streetcar projects across the country, the skyway's O&M would be higher.  This is most likely due to the funds needed to maintain the automated system, elevated infrastructure and massive stations.  Also, as the skyway ages, expect those O&M costs to rise.

[iMarvin]

The gas tax is definitely going to affect JTA. They would be wise to prepare for it. Cut costs, increase revenue, try to do more with less. If they keep things going like they are now, that gas tax won't be renewed.

Years ago, when the $100 million in BJP funds for transit was still around, I advised Mike Blaylock and JTA that they would be wise to get at least one starter transit line up and running ASAP before the gas tax expired.  Without making drastic changes that have to result in better reliable service with what they can utilize now, that gas tax isn't going to get extended.  Now, at least three years have passed, the BJP transit money is gone (in the courthouse most likely) and they are no closer to doing something today than they were then.  2016 will be here before we know it.

I don't want to see JTA crumble and be abolished but if they don't start proving themselves, they're going to have major issues. They won't be able to do anything.

[Dashing Dan]

Why would Streetcar O&M be higher on a daily basis than O&M for the Skyway?  Each street car needs an operator, two or three operators (guessing here - even if it 5 or 6) can operate the entire Skyway system.

On an hourly or per mile basis, streetcar O&M should be significantly higher than the O&M for the skyway, given that the streetcar costs rise in direct proportion with the number of streetcars in operation (1 operator per streetcar), whereas the number of skyway operators is more or less the same no matter how many skyway vehicles are in operation, or no matter how far they go.

The same for guideway maintenance.  With its own guideway there should be less wear and tear than if you had to maintain a streetcar track as part of a normal roadbed.

The cost to build or extend the skyway should be offset by the savings in operations and maintenance costs, or else you don't really have a rationale for building or extending the skyway.

Now that most of the skyway is built, the marginal cost of extending it should be all that you're looking at, not the average cost per mile for the system as a whole.  When the skyway was extended to Kings Avenue about 10 - 12 years ago, the cost per mile for that extension was not all that high.

[thelakelander]

Selected Streetcar Annual O&M Costs:

Portland Streetcar (4 miles) - $4.9 million (FY 2008)

Little Rock River Rail Streetcar (3.4 miles) - $650,000 (2007)**

Tampa TECO Streetcar (2.7 miles) - $2.50 million (FY 2006)**

Kenosha Streetcar (1.9 miles) - $335,000 (FY 2008)**

Memphis Streetcar (7 miles) - $3.9 million (FY 2005)**

**- Heritage/Vintage trolley systems are cheaper to construct and operate than modern streetcars.

http://visioncincinnati.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/streetcar-data-in-other-cities1.pdf


Skyway Annual O&M Costs according to FTU:

JTA Skyway Express (2.5 miles) - $4 million (2011)

http://jacksonville.com/news/florida/2011-08-26/story/skyway-could-be-torn-down-if-ridership-doesnt-improve-next-25-years

I'll dig around and see if I can find some updated O&M numbers on some of the streetcar lines above.

[thelakelander]

According to this March 2, 2011 document, here are some updated numbers for some streetcar projects mentioned above:
http://ashlandtsp.com/system/datas/110/original/AshlandTSP_StreetcarsWP_030211.pdf

Modern Streetcars

Portlant Streetcar (4 miles) - $5.5 million

Tacoma Link (1.6 miles) - $3.3 million

South Lake Union Streetcar (1.3 miles) - $2.4 million


Heritage Streetcars

Kenosha Streetcar (1.9 miles) - $300,000

Memphis Trolley (7 miles) - $4.1 million

Tampa TECO Line Streetcar (2.7 miles) - $2.4 million

Little Rock River Rail Streetcar (3.4 miles) - $900,000

[Dashing Dan]

Again:

Most of the skyway costs do not vary with the number of vehicles or miles operated.  The marginal O&M costs for the skyway are therefore much lower than the average costs, whereas for a streetcar the marginal and average costs would be nearly the same. 

[JeffreyS]

Lake I think you have found something that Jacksonville could get behind.  I guess we might need a Bud Light one as well.