Jacksonville mayor comes out against new toll road

[buckethead]

Since this is the big boy thread, I have tried to minimize my input, but as to the question of public/private partnerships, one could argue the donation of land does fit into the category.

First, one owns a piece of real estate which has a value (however low that might be), donates it for a road building project, then the adjacent property becomes much more valuable due to the public funds used to improve (build roads) on the donated property.
(please disregard any complaints about sprawl or future infrastructure needs... Sprawl which increases the value of properties I own, is good sprawl)

It is akin to corporate welfare which could also be construed as a public/private partnership.

[cline]

One would have extended from 103rd street and the other would have been via an extension of Dancy Street.

Wow.  That's the first I've ever heard of the Dancy Street alignment.  Think about how that would have completely changed Riverside-Avondale.  It would have had a dramatic effect.

Do you think you could scan some of the highlights of the plan and post them?

[dougskiles]

Was it this project, or a similar one, that created RAP?  Meaning the neighborhood decided to band together and speak as one voice to protect themselves from more intrusive highway destruction.

[Dashing Dan]

One would have extended from 103rd street and the other would have been via an extension of Dancy Street.

Wow.  That's the first I've ever heard of the Dancy Street alignment.  Think about how that would have completely changed Riverside-Avondale.  It would have had a dramatic effect.

Do you think you could scan some of the highlights of the plan and post them?

Some of this stuff was in the RAP video that came out about a year and a half ago. 

But yes, I could make a few scans of some of the stuff that I have kept.

The freeways through Riverside and Avondale were never very likely, but the plans that showed them would probably have had a chilling effect anyway.  By 1978 the freeways through Riverside and Avondale had been deleted from the JUATS transportation plan.

It's sad to think about all of the neighborhoods in the US that were not as lucky as Riverside-Avondale.

Also fortunately for Riverside and Avondale, the forecasts of traffic to and from downtown never rose to the levels that we had predicted.

[thelakelander]

I don't remember the year, but there are old Skyway concepts that had it going through Riverside down Post Street.  The plans had all the houses on the west side of the Post demolished and replaced with the Skyway, a multiuse path and a linear park.  The next time I'm at the library I'll try and remember to scan some of the graphics.

[Dashing Dan]

Separately from any skyway studies, a feasibililty study for a fixed guideway transit system was conducted from 1972 to 1974.  The line down Post Street was part of that plan.  Based on what was known about that study at that time, the Riverside Area Plan (1973) shows something like what you described.

I don't believe that the skyway plans ever went beyond the Fuller Warren.

[Charles Hunter]

Yes, the JUATS 1973 plans, including the Dancy Street bridge and another N-S xway thru Riverside/Avondale directly led to the formation of RAP.

I think the east end of the Dancy bridge would be around Atlantic Blvd. - destroying San Marco, too.

[Dashing Dan]

From 1962 to 1991, federal law required every urbanized area to have a long range plan for the complete elimination of traffic congestion.  As a consequence, a lot of freeways were planned that were never actually meant to be built, not just here in Jacksonville, but in nearly every city in the country.

Borrowing from the JUATS plan that required these freeways to be included, the city comprehensive plan also showed these planned freeways through Riverside.

There were at least two RAP meetings in 1974 where the JUATS plan and the city comprehensive plan were discussed.  These meetings were very well attended, and the attendees were highly motivated. 

But I do not believe that freeways were the main issue that drove the growth of RAP.   RAP had already been formed before the freeway issue came up, and the blanket rezoning of Riverside for mixed use development was a more immediate threat.

[north miami]

Yes, the JUATS 1973 plans, including the Dancy Street bridge and another N-S xway thru Riverside/Avondale directly led to the formation of RAP.

I think the east end of the Dancy bridge would be around Atlantic Blvd. - destroying San Marco, too.

[north miami]

Tufsu   are you involved in BC corridor east-west roadway/wetland belt ?

I have no money or stake in the BC corridor

Hmm.  Is that strictly true?  I thought you were on the TPO board that recommended, some say pushed the outer beltway?

[north miami]

What would it take to kill the project forever?

Three Million Dollar public interest,legal effort

[thelakelander]

Rick Scott meeting with Alvin Brown Monday

Gov. Rick Scott will conclude his swing through the First Coast Monday with a meeting with Jacksonville Mayor Alvin Brown.

"Just to say hi," said Abel Harding, Brown's spokesman, of Scott's visit.

He said that port funding and toll roads "may also come up."

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/403455/matt-dixon/2011-08-29/rick-scott-meeting-alvin-brown-monday

[Tacachale]

My old man made a good point about tolls yesterday that I hadn't really thought of. He said people didn't care so much about stopping for tolls for one-time trips, such as over the bridges to the airport, what they really hated was getting held up for extended periods in their daily commute. But today, for people who have to use a toll road or bridge daily, SunPass and similar systems has largely eliminated that inconvenience entirely. There's virtually no wait, no fumbling for change, no getting stuck behind someone who forgot to bring cash when you're just trying to get to work - you just slow down and drive through the thing. And the road is still subsidized by the people who use it rather than a tax payed for by everyone in the city. That thought really changed my opinion about tolls.

[Dashing Dan]

At first we might have thought that we could get tourists from out of state to pay more than their share of our infrastructure costs.

[thelakelander]

I grew up in Central Florida.  I have no problem with tolls other than the fact that they aren't high enough.  However, in regards to Central Florida, most local residents tend to avoid them, which is why the surface streets are so bad.  You'd be amazed how a network of local goat's paths can be immediately transformed into an arterial by local residents to avoid paying a $1 toll.  It doesn't sound like much but it adds up real quick, depending on the length and frequency of your commute.  Nevertheless, with the Outer Beltway, I think a larger issue is the fact that over $200 million in local money has been spent on the construction of what exists there today.  Sticking a toll on this street, without writing Jacksonville taxpayers a refund check is essentially double taxing.