Should Jax invest in a new convention center?

[vicupstate]

The Prime Osborn has lots of space around it too, WITHOUT having to replace stadium parking with garages.  Lot J is no larger than the courthouse site.

'Breathing room' = asphalt parking with nothing in sight to support the functions of a CC.

[ProjectMaximus]

At Lot J, there immediately appears to be more breathing room. And, like the courthouse, Lot J has surrounding property for additional use.  Quite a bit more.  The Pepsi zone in front of the stadium would make a great spot for a hotel or garage.  The retention pond could be redeveloped after re-engineering the guy wires for the TV tower.  The parking lots (Lots M, N, etc.) to the north could be used for hotel/entertainment  or rolled up into parking garages freeing up much more space.  Bottom line, there is lots of open space around lot J and it adds up to much more than what is around the courthouse.  Any garages built could be lined with street level retail.  The Pepsi zone could even be moved to a garage roof top with an aerial connection to the stadium's mid-deck.  And, the CC and/or hotel(s) here could be built above (or below) parking just as you suggested at the courthouse site.  Lots of possibilities if we get creative.

Everything you've stated would cost us hundreds of millions more to subsidize and compete against the Northbank core that we've already subsidized.  It does not make fiscal sense to to that, especially considering that by doubling up, you're essentially creating an unsustainable environment for both since the market can't support them.  

I like STJR's approach to ideas and the much-needed injection of unique creativity into these discussions...especially some of his out-of-the-box ideas that occasionally run counter to the standard urban planning . But on this point, I side with Lake and feel this is the strongest argument against the Sports Complex and for the Courthouse site. As STJR said in an earlier post that the sports complex plan, if done right, could even pull from downtown. Which is revealing since it's exactly what we wouldn't want to have happen. Supposing this plan for a "comprehensive convention center village" takes off and is an unparalleled success at the Sports Complex...why would anyone want to have that at the expense of the budding synergy of the Bay St. District and Laura Trio, etc??

[dlemore]

I think we need to take a hard look at the present utilization of the current convention center(as a convention center). If the bookings are limited, then maybe we should find another "existing" building to use as a convention center and go with the JTA's idea of a full blown transportation center. I also would like for JTA or Mr. Miller to think of Jacksonville as a 24 hour town and look for ways to run it's buses to accommodate those individuals who would like transportation not only for work and pleasure but for a way to get around if and when this transportation center comes on line(trains and Greyhound buses don't stop running at 11pm so why should our public transportation.) I have no quarral with moving Amtrak from it's present location but I do have a problem with the limited trackage and weather or not workers of the new transportation center would have problems with the construction of the new alteration of this building, while Amtrak customers are waiting for their trains to depart and arrive, if this decision is made. If problems do arise.....where do we relocate these passengers? In regards to trackage...maybe we can handle the trains now but I doubt we would have the space for any future planning. I would suggest the parking space behind the terminal be used for extra trackage and build a parking garage above that trackage. Start adding the trains this building would have to accommodate now and in the future.

[buckethead]

Cost Plus is invariably a conlfict of interest without proper predetermined cost limits.

Too much grey area that increases the fluff. The fluff being the means to increase profitability by unneccesary cost increases.

SMG.... You're fired.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

I thought 'cost plus' was just that.  At least in my job it is.

I may get a retainer or a deposit, but as the plus gets added - it gets subtracted from the initial payment until I'm collecting a monthly draw.  Is the $1M a fee collected in addition to or is it a total of the % they collected over the years?

[Jdog]

Could a new convention center fit west of the current convention center (you'd also expand north to snug up to Bay Street and, heck, could build out on the west side of the skyway station between Bay and Forsyth with the use of a pedestrian skywalk, can you go a bit vertical at all with a convention center as well?)?

Might be nice to build it out in bite-sized phases as transportation moves into and increases in the adjoining current convention center / future transportation center site...also, maybe a lot of energy if those two facilities abutted.  Maybe phasing in like that is more feasible politically?   

Just a brainstormed idea to bat around...be gentle...not advocating anything!   

[thelakelander]

Yes, but it would be a waste of money without a new hotel and convention center support businesses.  Plus, we can't fill the ones we already have.  I think the idea of the Prime Osborn remaining a convention center long term has already sailed.  The true feasibility of it died with the city's decision to subsidize the Hyatt instead of Bucky Clarkson's proposed Marriott next the Prime Osborn a decade ago.  With Brown as mayor, it seems like we need to be figuring out the timeline for a move from the P.O. and coordinating the transportation center's buildout with that.

[Jdog]

I see your post on July 27th...

Seems like you're focusing on synergies with Bay Street and with Hyatt's already existing convention space.  I can definitely buy into your points. 

And money wise, wouldn't that be one of the cheaper options?  You're leveraging off of the Hyatt, you've got the land on Bay Street, some development and more potential on Bay Street, and you're moving transportation into the existing train station.  Except for, perhaps, transit...I think it would be nice to get a $ Skyway stop. 

[Ralph W]

Suppose we make the decision to bite the bullet and do away with the current convention center, converting it to the transportation center - right NOW. No more beating around the bush - just do it.

What would really happen, financially?  Could whatever is currently scheduled for the PO be routed to the halls of our hotels, to the Morocco, to the Arena, to Everbank Field, to a hanger at one of the airports?

How much would we suffer if the schedule was just cancelled or at least phased out while the structure and surround was converted to transportation use?

Whose pockets would not be lined?

Greyhound could immediately start to use the facilities, even if they had to pull the buses into the dirt lot, with a minimum of fuss and a minimum of renovations to convert the main terminal back to a waiting room and ticket counter. Greyhound is going to be paying for a lot of stuff anyhow to move their operation so they can start early with a little rent and some taxes to get the ball rolling. Taxis and city buses would have no problem with a little rerouting to meet the incoming or outgoing Greyhounds and the Skyway is right across the street. Parking is already there in the back for employees, park and ride, some short or long term parking as well as passenger pickup/drop off.

Amtrak will see we are serious and just maybe get busy moving back from BFE Amshack.

[danem]

Upcoming events at the Prime Osborn: http://www.jaxevents.com/primeosborn.php

On the surface, it looks like the events use exhibit hall space. The Hyatt has about 110k square feet of "flexibile exhibit space", while the PO has 265k. I'd wonder if the events use all 265,000? Of course to move these things, there may be some thorny issues with contracts possible signed over a year ago, and some events may have to change their dates.

http://jacksonville.hyatt.com/hyatt/hotels/events/meetings/index.jsp

[tufsu1]

the key is for exhibits is continguous space...the Prime has about 75,000sf, which is clearly an issue with even big local events like the Auto show....the Hyatt has less than 30,000sf of contiguous exhibit space

[ChriswUfGator]

The cost isn't worth that small number of events, that in total draw less visitors in a year than a single walmart draws in one week. The cost/benefit analysis is not worth it, we aren't equipped to compete in the convention business and the building is the least of our problems.

Also, Tufsu, you act like we aren't just competing against ourselves with two publicly-funded convention centers, which we are. Veterans Arena was designed as flex space, it is in fact another whole convention center, with a gigantic contiguous space. The auto and boat show could easily go there. Problem solved. Without spending a dime of tax money.

[tufsu1]

Also, Tufsu, you act like we aren't just competing against ourselves with two publicly-funded convention centers, which we are. Veterans Arena was designed as flex space, it is in fact another whole convention center, with a gigantic contiguous space. The auto and boat show could easily go there. Problem solved. Without spending a dime of tax money.

Nice try...but as others (including Lakelander) have noted, the arena does not have nearly enough exhibit space...the floor of the arena (with seats folded back) is less than 30,000 sq ft.

[urbanlibertarian]

I gotta agree with ChriswUFGator on this one (and that's kinda scary).  I think we can do without the POCC at least temporarily especially if it saves us big bucks on the JRTC.

[danem]

I gotta agree with ChriswUFGator on this one (and that's kinda scary).  I think we can do without the POCC at least temporarily especially if it saves us big bucks on the JRTC.

The schedule as shown on the website is VERY light, and it does look like most of that could be held elsewhere in town.

I do think a convention center opened in the future is in Jacksonville's best interest, but such a development needs to be started at the same time as the "stuff" that needs to be around it, and that "stuff" should be the sorts of things that also serves the needs of the people who already live or work in Jacksonville.