Understanding the St. Johns Town Center

[danno]

it seems like you did....... "to me"

[Timkin]

Wow, did I say "to me" enough in that last post??

No... you should have said it a few more times

[danem]

Those are fun suggestions Peeing Guy. I feel like even if STJC doesn't change much, there is a lot of room in town for something else to spring up out of a currently blighted or empty area that would be more like what you described. When I first got interested in this subject, I remember reading stories about taking a "greyfield" (usually an abandoned, blighted mall) and retooling it into this amazing mixed use setup.

[ProjectMaximus]

I dont think a massive structure is the answer either. The drive-up parking & roads in the actual center of the shops obviously isn't going away.

The design of SJTC to me has always stunk because they were trying to please both cars & pedestrians by having them share the same space, but ended up screwing both of them. Cars dont have any parking near the shops they want (so they play the "circle around a hundred times" game until they give up & park at one of the big anchor lots), and pedestrians feel like they always have to be on the lookout for those cars (esp if you have kids). Its not good.

To me, it would have made more sense to mimic something like Downtown Disney (or the La Cantera San Antonio outdoor mall I posted earlier). Meaning the actual mall part is sorta enclosed inside of its own parameter & parking is done all along the outside parameter, with alleys & breezeways cutting through to connect the parking lots to the mall. You can't do that with SJTC because of its sprawling, car-centric nature. It just cant be done because it was never designed that way.

So to me, they can retrofit any parking structure over top of it they want, its still gonna blow.

I'm not so hot on the pedestrian mall concept...at least not yet. I guess we just have different preferences, but I wish the entire town center was exactly like the main strip that you're bashing. Which would then make it at least appear like a town center. =)

I guess in my mind, pedestrians and autos should be able to coexist, and the town center should be designed to work for both. Of course, that's also contingent on drivers understanding how to properly share the road and pedestrians knowing how to walk in traffic...perhaps asking too much in Jax.  

to me, that is. 

[mfc]

The section of the town center that attracts me is where the street divides the center. Especially at Christmas time. I also like the restaurants. Downtown can attract people as well and it will. It will take time but I see momentum building with wells Fargo, ever bank, Laura street improvements including the round about, and the Laura street trio. These are all going on or fixing to go on in the walkable core. Better days are ahead!!  Btw, we do not need to pit downtown vs the town center. They are 2 different creatures and will attract similar but also different visitors. They can  both be good for jax.

[thelakelander]

Great points, Matt.

[brainstormer]

Would people on this site feel differently about the SJTC if it were essentially a bigger version of Tapestry Park?

Maybe. Here's the problem in my opinion.  SJTC got too big and lost its charm.  I love Tapestry Park because it includes residential and is walkable.  My opinion of walkable is you can park (if you don't live there) and safely walk to everything you need/want to.  I consider Tapestry Park walkable and Tinseltown not walkable because of the huge parking lots and no sidewalks.  I consider Laura Street downtown walkable, there just isn't a lot of options. 

I loved SJTC when it first opened.  It wasn't as big so there was a lot less traffic.  Now with the MofTC next door, there is just way too much traffic and nothing is connected.  Walking across parking lots to get from one place to another is not safe or enjoyable.  SJTC lost its appeal with all of the parceled development along Town Center Blvd.  When they allowed everything outside of the core of SJTC to become autocentric, it kind of defeated the purpose. 

They should have kept the traditional street grid going and built up, not out.  For example, the strip with Ross/Famous Footwear/Staples should have been on the other side of the parking lot, directly across from and still facing DSW.  All of the shops like Panera, Game Stop, Mens Warehouse should have been built along Town Crossing Drive instead of in separate stand alone buildings.  Town Crossing Drive should have looked more like River City Drive.  With a parking structure between Dillards and B&N everything would have been more centrally located and actually walkable.  CompUSA and the others around it should have been placed along Rivercoast Drive to preserve that as a walkable street.  I wish developers spent more time planning before they build.  Most seem to lack vision for anthing beyond a year.

[ProjectMaximus]

You're right, brainstormer. It would have been awesome had the entire development been walkable with residential integrated throughout. And parking on top!!

Anyway, if anyone knows, I've always wondered whether these chains that keep coming in actually own their buildings or if the developer builds it and collects rent? Do Bahama Breeze or Cantina Laredo pay Ben Carter Properties rent for the buildings, rent for the land, or not at all?

[jcjohnpaint]

and going off what a previous post said..the SJTC has a good chance of better integrating with UNF in terms of housing/ more urban town like than the low density sprawl around the school.  It might be too late for that.  It seems like every open space as of late has become a box store. 

[jcjohnpaint]

FWIW, there's already a practically-dedicated bus route (SS-6) that serves UNF and the SJTC.  Well ok, not really dedicated per se, but it gets decent usage with the students traveling to Publix and the rest of the TC from campus.

I'm just saying it would be great to see some more apartments/condos/townhomes in and around Town Center to make the area more connected to students living closer to campus. I go to UNF, and most students that don't live on campus live drive to school. There was discussion on another thread about how the campus is isolated from everything. I agree that there is JTA bus routing, but apartments in and around SJTC would allow for a more "college town" or a more united feel for the city and school. There has been talk for the last few years from recenet Student Government administrations about expanding UNF's shuttle to the Town Center. I wouldn't be surprised if it happened in the next 5 years.

Town Center has been a big benefit to UNF, and I think Town Center should realize the potential that UNF could bring them if they really want to be an actual "Town Center." I just wish everything was more pedestrian/biking friendly...and the two being so close to each other offers a great opportunity to have a gem in the urban sprawl of Southside.

here it is!

[bill]

SJTC has been a huge success and Tapestry Park is a disaster. I am sure it was because of subsidies/evil developers etc. The free market is very smart and like it or not this is what the people want

[thelakelander]

^The free market has nothing to do with either center's layout.  I'd also put money up that their success/failure has more to do with each center's accessibility to arterial highways in the area and the presence of anchors needed to draw people to the smaller shops in them. I'm also not sure why the developers would be seen as "evil" with either of these projects.  I also don't understand why people believe the developer should have built SJTC a different way.  It and the majority of nearby office buildings, apartment complexes and subdivisions are simply a byproduct of COJ's suburban zoning regulations.  If we want something different in suburbia, its going to have to start with a change in the zoning code, not the private sector.

[tufsu1]

I'm not suer Tapestry Park is a disaster....it has some specialty retail, a high end restaurant (3 Forks), casual dining (Jimmy Johns), two hotels...and oh yeah, one thing SJTC dioesn't have....residential!

[thelakelander]

SJTC does have residential. It's near the hotel behind Dick's.

[tufsu1]

SJTC does have residential. It's near the hotel behind Dick's.

I didn't really count that...I guess it is kind of walkable, but not integrated