Assorted Discussion about the Skyway and the PCT Trolleys

[BigGuy219]

The Riverside Trolley runs pretty regularly. It hits all the key spots in Avondale, Riverside, Brooklyn, and downtown.

I use it 3-4 times a week, but isn't exactly overflowing with riderships. It's a shame, because it's a great service.

If this area won't use the trolley for work, or to get to downtown, why is there such a strong belief they'd give up their cars for the Skyway or a streetcar?

[Captain Zissou]

I leave for work at 7:30.  I usually leave from work at 6:30.  The riverside trolley has nothing to offer me.  Not to mention I work in Southpoint.

If the trolley had hours where I could actually use it, I would.  As of now it doesn't. 

[BigGuy219]

I leave for work at 7:30.  I usually leave from work at 6:30.  The riverside trolley has nothing to offer me.  Not to mention I work in Southpoint.

If the trolley had hours where I could actually use it, I would.  As of now it doesn't. 

How would a Streetcar or Skyway get you to Southpoint?

You're also assuming either would have different hours than the Riverside Trolley.

I think there's a little excitement (and desperation) for anything to happen transit-wise, that we're not thinking it through.

[Captain Zissou]

If this area won't use the trolley for work, or to get to downtown, why is there such a strong belief they'd give up their cars for the Skyway or a streetcar?

My comment was in response to this gem.

I don't use the trolley currently, because I can't.  I would use the trolley if it had weekend and evening hours.  I never mentioned the skyway or streetcar in my previous post.... So your assumption based on the assumption that I didn't make is just pointless.

If there was reliable transit that had brief headways, extended hours, and quick service... I would ride it.  It could look like the Oscar Meyer wiener and I'd ride it.

For starters, let's decrease time between cars and increase the hours of the Trolley.  It is my assertion that ridership would increase.

[BigGuy219]

If this area won't use the trolley for work, or to get to downtown, why is there such a strong belief they'd give up their cars for the Skyway or a streetcar?

My comment was in response to this gem.

I don't use the trolley currently, because I can't.  I would use the trolley if it had weekend and evening hours.  I never mentioned the skyway or streetcar in my previous post.... So your assumption based on the assumption that I didn't make is just pointless.

If there was reliable transit that had brief headways, extended hours, and quick service... I would ride it.  It could look like the Oscar Meyer wiener and I'd ride it.

For starters, let's decrease time between cars and increase the hours of the Trolley.  It is my assertion that ridership would increase.

What would you suggest in terms of a 'brief' headway? At certain points in the day, there is a trolley every 12 minutes.

What would you suggest for the hours of the trolley? The trolley currently runs from 5 am to 7 pm.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'quick service.'

I'd really like to get some Trolley feedback, because I use it multiple times each week. I love it, but it's usually just me on it.

[Captain Zissou]

To make it feasible for lunch for downtown and riverside employees, 7 minute headways or less should be implemented.  A 12 minute headway is almost a quarter of the lunch hour.  People can't afford to gamble like that.

I would suggest 6 am-10pm or later. On the weekends I suggest 20 minute headways after 8 pm, but run cars until midnight or later. 

By quick service I mean it should be nearly as fast as driving yourself.  The trolley alleviates the need for parking, but if it takes you 15 minutes to get from DT to 5 points, it's not worth it.

[BigGuy219]

To make it feasible for lunch for downtown and riverside employees, 7 minute headways or less should be implemented.  A 12 minute headway is almost a quarter of the lunch hour.  People can't afford to gamble like that.

I would suggest 6 am-10pm or later. On the weekends I suggest 20 minute headways after 8 pm, but run cars until midnight or later. 

By quick service I mean it should be nearly as fast as driving yourself.  The trolley alleviates the need for parking, but if it takes you 15 minutes to get from DT to 5 points, it's not worth it.

Do you think a Skyway extension or the proposed street car will address those things?

I'm not saying they won't. The truth is I don't know.

But, what I do know, is that if we don't find out why people aren't using the Trolley, and make sure the new transit addresses those concerns, it won't be the success it needs to be. 

[thelakelander]

In addition to the starter streetcar line connecting DT with Riverside, the commuter rail north line (DT to Airport eventually) is also a priority project of the recently adopted Mobility Plan. Bigguy, BRT and the commuter rail southeast project will eventually get you from DT to Southpoint.

[BigGuy219]

In addition to the starter streetcar line connecting DT with Riverside, the commuter rail north line (DT to Airport eventually) is also a priority project of the recently adopted Mobility Plan. Bigguy, BRT and the commuter rail southeast project will eventually get you from DT to Southpoint.

JTA is doing everything they can to market the trolley, Lake. It goes over the proposed route of the street car, and beyond into Avondale and the Kent Campus. Yet, it's not the success they hoped it would be.

That's the primary reason I'm concerned about our first transit expansion being into an area that currently has been given what I consider a great service, and pretty much rejected it.

Since the street car is just our trolley, but on rails instead of wheels, I'm not sure that novelty effect will be enough to make it into a success. Same with a Skyway.

[Captain Zissou]

But, what I do know, is that if we don't find out why people aren't using the Trolley, and make sure the new transit addresses those concerns, it won't be the success it needs to be.

Very true.  I feel like we don't often do this in our city.

[BigGuy219]

But, what I do know, is that if we don't find out why people aren't using the Trolley, and make sure the new transit addresses those concerns, it won't be the success it needs to be.

Very true.  I feel like we don't often do this in our city.

I think RAP/JTA should get together and have a 'town hall' style event to get feedback from the local residents about the Trolley. Find out why they say, "Oh. That's cute, but I think I'll still drive." And then see if there's anything we can get from that to apply to future transit in the area.

[BigGuy219]

In addition to the starter streetcar line connecting DT with Riverside, the commuter rail north line (DT to Airport eventually) is also a priority project of the recently adopted Mobility Plan. Bigguy, BRT and the commuter rail southeast project will eventually get you from DT to Southpoint.

JTA is doing everything they can to market the trolley, Lake. It goes over the proposed route of the street car, and beyond into Avondale and the Kent Campus. Yet, it's not the success they hoped it would be.

That's the primary reason I'm concerned about our first transit expansion being into an area that currently has been given what I consider a great service, and pretty much rejected it.

Since the street car is just our trolley, but on rails instead of wheels, I'm not sure that novelty effect will be enough to make it into a success. Same with a Skyway.

What on earth are you talking about?

The so called 'great service' you are talking about is just a bus.  Its painted like a trolley, but its not a trolley and is still a bus service.

You do know that they are two different things right?

Like you don't think that if they used one of the painted buses to go to run the regency route that it would be a 'new service' do you?

"Just a bus?" How can any transit advocates dismiss a bus. It's the most used and available form of mass transit in the world.

Our Trolley is a great service. I walk two extra blocks to Bay Street, with discomfort, just to take the trolley instead of one of JTA's traditional busses.

It's very fun to ride. I like the benches, the straps, and the sound effects. I ride it 6-8 times a week and I have nothing but rave reviews for it.

[BigGuy219]

yes.  It is just a bus.  It is not a new service, and in is not in any way similar to either the proposed trolley lines, nor the skyway.

Its interesting that your opinions about transit revolve around the straps and sound effects, but Im not sure how relevant such opinions are.

But why aren't people riding it? Because they're "transit snobs" who won't ride any bus, regardless of design?

[BigGuy219]

yes.  It is just a bus.  It is not a new service, and in is not in any way similar to either the proposed trolley lines, nor the skyway.

Its interesting that your opinions about transit revolve around the straps and sound effects, but Im not sure how relevant such opinions are.

But why aren't people riding it? Because they're "transit snobs" who won't ride any bus, regardless of design?

Hmm. So the 99% of people who refuse to ride JTA buses are just 'transit snobs' eh?

Perhaps you can explain why Jacksonville has such a supernaturally high percentage of these people?

Is it because of our extremely high levels of per capita wealth?

I don't know if they're "transit snobs." I was asking you if that was the reason, because I don't know.

The Riverside Trolley is fantastic. It goes everywhere along the river from Kent to the Landing. It's cheap. It's clean. They're all new and attractive vehicles. They're marketed well. They do special events.

But, ridership is low.

I think it's important we identify the reason(s) why.

Because I don't think you can replace the Riverside Trolley with a proposed streetcar or Skyway expansion, and automatically think they'll succeed where the trolley has not, jus because one is a "bus" and one is "not a bus."

[L.P. Hovercraft]

JTA is doing everything they can to market the trolley, Lake. It goes over the proposed route of the street car, and beyond into Avondale and the Kent Campus. Yet, it's not the success they hoped it would be.

That's the primary reason I'm concerned about our first transit expansion being into an area that currently has been given what I consider a great service, and pretty much rejected it.

Since the street car is just our trolley, but on rails instead of wheels, I'm not sure that novelty effect will be enough to make it into a success. Same with a Skyway.

I don't think I'd call the PCT "trolley" as it currently runs a "great service", BigGuy.  It's merely just OK.  I know if I could catch it from the Park and King area in Riverside to downtown or to Avondale or San Marco after work or on weekends for drinks and dinner, I would; however if it stops running at 7 pm that pretty much limits your entertainment options to the early bird special only.  Not having to drive after imbibing a few drinks would be great; getting stranded downtown when the service has already stopped running at 7 pm?  Not so great. 
May as well drive, ride your bike, or walk.