Elements of Urbanism: Atlanta

[AaroniusLives]

Wow, what a thread! There's a lot of Jax versus ATL versus MIA here. Having been born and raised in Miami, and having worked and lived in Atlanta for awhile (before moving to DC in 2007,) I might be able to offer clarity.

(I'll get to the Miami/Atlanta comparos in a moment.)

Kind of like as someone said, if it's unrealistic to compare Jacksonville to Atlanta, it's unrealistic to compare Atlanta to New York.  The difference is that Atlanta is becoming New York (albeit slowly and on a newer, smaller scale) and Jacksonville is becoming nothing.

While calling themselves "the Manhattan of the South," in no way is Atlanta going to become New York anytime soon. Not dense enough, not exclusive enough...and since the inexpensiveness is part of the draw for Atlanta "you can work for [INSERT COMPANY HERE] and have a 4 bedroom house with pool for nothing," I doubt they'll supplant NYC.

Having lived in all three cities. JAX has a greater cultural connectoin to NYC than Atlanta.  In terms of urban morphology, Atlanta will always be the dry heart of Dixie, sprawled out like a Texas town.

This is flat-out wrong. For the most part, when NYC people deign to move from the Big Apple to the South, they end up in either Atlanta or Miami (the 6th burrough of New York, really.) Current cultural trends align to both ATL and MIA waaaaaay more than they align to JAX.

ATL & MIA comparasions are pretty funny to me. ATL has more Fortune 500's in it's suburbs than MIA has in it's city limits, and even Jax has more in it's city limits than MIA. But yet the Nat'l media wanna forcefeed that 'MIA is all that, and a bag of chips' bullcrap.

You know, Fortune 500 companies aren't everything. McDonalds is a Fortune 500 company. So is Wal-Mart. Detroit has two of 'em on the list and it's a shithole. Miami, and South Florida in general, has a ton of white-collar business, is a major international hub, and has more people than the Atlanta metro, to boot (and is much, MUCH denser.) just because Coca-Cola isn't underpaying people there doesn't remove it from the list.

RE: Miami, it is definitely denser than Atlanta on average all across the metro (mainly via street-hostile condos littered all about), but Brickell is really nothing special to me.  I'd say culture and diversity are the defining differences, as well as history, topography, and business climate.  Atlanta is far closer in culture to Miami than Jacksonville is, however.  Both have more of a big city mentality, both have somewhat defining cultures of the city, both have big city amenities, both have heavy mass transit, both have lots of skyscrapers, and both have pretty diverse populations (there are close to 600,000 documented Hispanics in Greater Atlanta, and almost as many Asians, not to mention almost 2 million blacks...Miami beats out everybody in the Hispanic department, has over a million blacks, and does not have many Asians).

Miami is also somewhat post-race and post-sexual orientation, where Atlanta mos def retains a bit of it's southern nature. But I always found Atlanta to be quite similar to Miami: a car-centric metro (even in the "city") that trades "Spanish drag" for "Tara drag" as it's modus operandi. Decent city, though. If you like it big and cheap, you'll love Atlanta. I lived in Buckhead for $950 a month in a luxury condo. It was awesome.

[AaroniusLives]

Probably the largest issue facing Atlanta is the utter dearth of density. When I was marketing real estate there, this came up quite a bit, in that you're marketing high-rises that may or may not be a part of a dense development, while you're also marketing lots of land! lots of square feet! across the metro. And yet, over the next few years, they're going to have to figure out how to stitch all of this together. Consider (all from wikipedia):
Greater NYC:
POP: 18,897,109
Area: 6,720 sq. mi.
Density: 2,838/sq. mi.

Metro LA:
POP: 12,828,837
Area: 4850.3 sq. mi.
Density: 2654.4/sq. mi.

Washington Metro:
POP: 5,582,170
Area: 5,564.6 sq mi
Density: 962.9/sq mi.

South Florida:
POP: 5,564,635
Area: 6,137 sq. mi.
Density: 890/sq. mi.

Metro Atlanta:
POP: 5,268,860
Area: 8,376 sq mi.
Density: 630/sq mi.

Mind you, this method isn’t perfect. It doesn’t take into account that basically 2/3rds of the South Florida “land” is protected Everglades (making it much denser,) or that government complexes, national parks and other protected lands essentially ribbon through DC’s metro, or that about ¼ of LA’s “land” is “mountains.”

But it’s pretty striking. Atlanta’s nearest metro equivalents (Miami and DC…the “about 5.5 million metros,”) are about 1.5 times more dense on a much smaller plot of land. I mean, metro Atlanta has more area than freakin’ LA!!!!! That’s a loooooooottttttt of dead space before Atlanta becomes the big Peach, and Metro Atlanta becomes the Cobbler.

[duvaldude08]

Atlanta is a great city visit. It is also a great example. Mayor hartsfield pratically made that city what it is. His vision is something Jacksonville's next mayor can definately take notes on. However, I would never stay in Atlanta. Its just something about it that I can get into. The traffic is one thing. But it just does not draw me for some reason. Ive considered it, but change my mind each time. I have family and friends up there.

[duvaldude08]

Atlanta is what Jacksonville was supposed to become before those no brain good ole boys destroyed our city. Great city and in my opinion the greatest City in the Southeast; it's really a toss up between Atlanta and Miami as to which is the greatest in the Southeast!

"HU"

You are exactly right! I heard someone say that a long time ago. I think thats the things that kills the citizens of Jacksonville. Sooooooooo much potential. But we lack leadership that has a vision. If I urban was that of ATL's, people would be flocking hear in hoards. Our DT does fool people. Because it looks nice from afar. But once you realize that most of those buildings are empty it makes you say, "WTF!"

[duvaldude08]

Interesting article. This quote captures my view of Atlanta.

"Atlanta is left as a sort of “quarter way house” caught between its traditional sprawling self and a more upscale urban metropolis. It offers neither the low traffic quality of life of its upstart competition, nor the sophisticated urban living of a Chicago or Boston."

IS IT GAME OVER FOR ATLANTA?

With growth slowing, a lack of infrastructure investment catching up with it, and rising competition in the neighborhood, the Capital of the New South is looking vulnerable.

Atlanta is arguably the greatest American urban growth story of the 20th century. In 1950, it was a sleepy state capital in a region of about a million people, not much different from Indianapolis or Columbus, Ohio. Today, it's a teeming region of 5.5 million, the 9th largest in America, home to the world's busiest airport, a major subway system, and numerous corporations. Critically, it also has established itself as the country's premier African American hub at a time of black empowerment.

Though famous for its sprawl, Atlanta has also quietly become one of America's top urban success stories. The city of Atlanta has added nearly 120,000 new residents since 2000, a population increase of 28% representing fully 10% of the region's growth during that period. None of America's traditional premier urban centers can make that claim. As a Chicago city-dweller who did multiple consulting stints in Atlanta, I can tell you the city is much better than its reputation in urbanists circles suggests, and it is a place I could happily live.

Yet the Great Recession has exposed some troubling cracks in the foundations of Atlanta's success. Though perhaps it is too early to declare “game over” for Atlanta, converging trends point to a possible plateauing of Atlanta remarkable rise, and the end of its great growth phase.

Full Article:
http://www.newgeography.com/content/001574-is-it-game-over-atlanta

I agree with this article. The recession has really caused some damage their. My friend has been there for six years and he says he is ready to leave. Still a great city, but definately not the ATL of its hay days.

[I-10east]

You know, Fortune 500 companies aren't everything. McDonalds is a Fortune 500 company. So is Wal-Mart. Detroit has two of 'em on the list and it's a shithole. Miami, and South Florida in general, has a ton of white-collar business, is a major international hub, and has more people than the Atlanta metro, to boot (and is much, MUCH denser.) just because Coca-Cola isn't underpaying people there doesn't remove it from the list.

F-500's aren't everything and DENSITY is? Hahahaha. Last time I checked, Hartsfield has more air traffic than Miami Int'l. MIA vs ATL business is still not that close, whether it's smaller white collar businesses, or F-500's. Mia has gotta have one of the biggest egos of any city in America. They seem to think that they have invented everything, but yet before Griselda Blanco started offin' all of those people in the eighties, MIA was basically Everglades swamp.    

[thelakelander]

Metro Miami has three international airports while Atlanta has one. When added up, how do they rank with Atlanta's?

[finehoe]

I think Miami is a preview of 21st century America:  Heavily Hispanic, with nearly third-world divides between the wealthy at the top, a tiny middle-class, and throngs of the not-very-well-off.

Haven't been to Atlanta in quite a few years, so can't comment on it.  People seem to either love it or hate it.

[I-10east]

Hell, while you're at it Lake, add Naples Municipal in there too. Lets just cluster everything in one lil' area, and pretend it's all one city.

[tufsu1]

Metro Miami has three international airports while Atlanta has one. When added up, how do they rank with Atlanta's?

still smaller, but only because Atlanta's airport is a transfer hub for many...just because I go through ATL on my way from JIA to BWI doesn't play that much role in the metro area's growth.

[mtraininjax]

Nice article about Atlanta and home prices, from the AJC, 4/20/2011:

The median sales price of a home in metro Atlanta dipped by $14,600 to just under $100,000 in March, according to new data from the National Association of Realtors.

“We’re back to almost 1997 levels,” said Steve Palm of housing data firm SmartNumbers. “It’s pretty bad and it’s not going to get better either.”

The volume of home sales in the area also dipped -- by 6.5 percent compared to the same month a year ago -- according to the data released Wednesday.

Palm said getting the housing market in better shape hinges on the economy, which he believes has not turned the corner.

In a speech to the Atlanta Press Club on Wednesday, Gov. Nathan Deal said this of the housing market, “It is truly one of the most troubling parts of our economy.”

It is a situation, he noted, that affects local governments more than the state, which gets a small percentage of the taxes paid by homeowners.

“What we have to do is create greater job opportunities,” Deal said.

[AaroniusLives]

You know, Fortune 500 companies aren't everything. McDonalds is a Fortune 500 company. So is Wal-Mart. Detroit has two of 'em on the list and it's a shithole. Miami, and South Florida in general, has a ton of white-collar business, is a major international hub, and has more people than the Atlanta metro, to boot (and is much, MUCH denser.) just because Coca-Cola isn't underpaying people there doesn't remove it from the list.

F-500's aren't everything and DENSITY is? Hahahaha. Last time I checked, Hartsfield has more air traffic than Miami Int'l. MIA vs ATL business is still not that close, whether it's smaller white collar businesses, or F-500's. Mia has gotta have one of the biggest egos of any city in America. They seem to think that they have invented everything, but yet before Griselda Blanco started offin' all of those people in the eighties, MIA was basically Everglades swamp.

When we're talking about urban planning, development and so-on, yes, density is key. When you're talking about airport movements, ATL is the lobby, while MIA is the actual destination. More people fly through ATL without ever setting foot in ATL than any other airport. As for businesses, they're actually pretty evenly matched, with Atlanta taking the second tier of offices for multi-nationals and Miami taking the "Latin America" offices.

[I-10east]

Apparently, a bad and monotonous color scheme (all hi-rises gotta be blue, and white) is the key to MIA's DT success. Can someone please name some of these so called 'oodles of successful companies' that are located in DT Miami? I still doubt if they come close to ATL's. I'll even go as far to say that in MIA, the office building to hotel/condo ratio in DT MIA is overwhelmingly dominated by the hotels/condos. Hell, I can portray Jax as some tourist mecca, but you gotta face reality at some point. MIA is nowhere in the same ballpark with ATL business-wise.

[spuwho]

When are we going to see a story on the "Elements of Suburbanism".

Perhaps a colorful dissection of Argyle Forest?  How about a pictorial on the Kernan Road bike path? No recollection of the new Alta Road/Yellow Bluff development build outs?

If Jacksonville doesn't have enough suburbanism, maybe we can check out Orange County, CA? DuPage County, IL or even that suburb of Crystal River (Dunnellon, FL)

[simms3]

Some clarity here:

Atlanta as a metro is not dense at all.  At all.  Nobody can deny that.  "In the Perimeter" (i.e.within 285) Atlanta can be quite dense.  Granted 90% of Atlanta's business centers and a good chunk of its industrial centers are within 285, as well as quite a few single family home neighborhoods (one large area in particular called Buckhead has homes sitting on 3 acre lots), Atlanta still has swaths of population living 10,000+ people per square mile.  Since 2007 alone when you left, Atlanta has added to an almost similar degree the same amount of units as downtown Miami/Brickell, just mostly in 5-7 floor buildings instead of empty 60 floor high rises.

Pricing wise, Atlanta's metro is cheap, like Jacksonville cheap.  Atlanta city, however, is closer in price to Miami than Jacksonville.  $950 for a luxury condo in Buckhead?  I don't buy it.  There's a one bedroom in Terminus 200 across from my office building (Terminus 100) going for $2,900.  I pay $1,600 in the "Oakwood Apts" building in Midtown, which is the cheapest high rise in Midtown considering it's a condo conversion and an old 1989 building.  Now I can see paying $950 for a studio in the The Concorde on Pharr Ct or in The Grandview on Lakeside Drive.  Both are 1990 buildings with similar prices as mine.  Heck, if you can purchase a condo in these buildings now is the time as they are cheap!

Business wise, Miami and Atlanta do compete.  Atlanta has quite a higher metro GDP than Miami, but both are above $200B (Jacksonville's is around $50B).  Miami is an international banking hub, but actually in a way so is Atlanta.  Atlanta has the Intercontinental Exchange (the ICE, a stock market which is partnering with the NASDAQ to try to take over the NYSE).  Miami has all of the international banks and Atlanta has small offices for a few, but Atlanta is a major player in domestic banks with huge offices for all of the major players (and nowadays major domestic banks are international players on so many levels, too).

Both Miami and Atlanta are dominators of big-hitting law firms.  Miami and Atlanta can compete with New York, Chicago, Pittsburgh, and LA for law firms (and law firms in each city are anchor tenants to some of the best office towers).

Miami AND Atlanta are both major destinations.  Miami has vacation tourism and second home markets for foreigners and the wealthy, and Atlanta is a major convention hub.  Both cities play host to foreign businessmen who travel to each frequently enough to have a place there, and both cities play host to major events, athletic or otherwise.  Atlanta has an "elite" market somewhat comparable to Miami's.  Whereas Houston and Dallas have more companies and bigger business than either Miami or Atlanta, both Miami and Atlanta support far more luxury condos and hotels than either Dallas or Houston.

Frankly, I think there are more similarities between Atlanta and Miami than dissimilarities.  Population/demographics/climate/history aside, both cities are sprouting up high rises and becoming hubs of companies and the rich (and celebrities) in a way that their peer cities in Texas are not.  Texas has the oil money and the energy companies, and that's it.  It's a pretty small, tight knit community unlikely to change drastically any time soon.

On an interesting note, Miami's office market is super tight.  We all know that downtown/Brickell does not have a lot of office space for a city its size.  Much of Miami's space is in Coral Gables or near the airport.  Either way, Atlanta is overbuilt, by a lot.  Atlanta can command $35/PSF rent in some of its towers, but averages $29 in Buckhead, $28 in Midtown, and only $20 in Dowtown.  Miami on the other hand can approach $50/PSF in some of its newer towers in Downtown/Brickell.  Miami averages $40-45/PSF for class A space in downtown/Brickell.  It's one of the most expensive office markets in the country.  On the flip side, there are some factors for renting in Miami that are cheaper than Atlanta, but base rent is not one of them (more expensive than Chicago for crying out loud).

And Miami, Fort Lauderdale, and West Palm are near each other, but are so not the same city in certain areas.  Office space in Fort Lauderdale is pretty cheap for instance.  Industries are different, everything is different except for climate.

And I just have to say it, but high rise architecture in Atlanta blows Miami's architecture out of the water, fair and square.  And both Atlanta and Miami are overbuilt in the condo arena.  You can purchase a "luxury" condo in Miami now for almost nothing, which is why so many buildings have gone from empty to at least half full within the past 6-8 months.  Atlanta is in the same boat.  If you want a condo in either city and you wait a year or 18 months to buy one, they'll be back to way way way unaffordable (condos in Atlanta that were asking $10-12M sold for half that price and there are 1 bedrooms in my cheap ass building renting for $1200/month but selling for $75-$150K...i.e. cheaper to buy).

This site not only has great pics, but also gives one an indepth look at Atlanta's condos:

http://www.atlantaskyriseblog.com/