Elements of Urbanism: Atlanta

[billy]

No Lubi's either...

[peestandingup]

Atlanta certainly has more going for it than Jax's core & we could learn a lot from it, but I personally could take it or leave it as a town. There's just not a lot of charm to it & even the urban areas have a sprawling feel to them. Hard to explain. It's sorta like if Southside Jax were more walkable & had more attractions, then that would remind me of Atlanta in a lot of ways.

BUT, they're the metro of the south & are in a better position than most down here. I just personally don't like the feel of it & prefer more condensity/historic fabric. Older towns that were created from the beginning to be walkable with greater infill & that STAYED somewhat condensed.

[heights unknown]

Atlanta is what Jacksonville was supposed to become before those no brain good ole boys destroyed our city. Great city and in my opinion the greatest City in the Southeast; it's really a toss up between Atlanta and Miami as to which is the greatest in the Southeast!

"HU"

[simms3]

Atlanta certainly has more going for it than Jax's core & we could learn a lot from it, but I personally could take it or leave it as a town. There's just not a lot of charm to it & even the urban areas have a sprawling feel to them. Hard to explain. It's sorta like if Southside Jax were more walkable & had more attractions, then that would remind me of Atlanta in a lot of ways.

BUT, they're the metro of the south & are in a better position than most down here. I just personally don't like the feel of it & prefer more condensity/historic fabric. Older towns that were created from the beginning to be walkable with greater infill & that STAYED somewhat condensed.

Uh ok, you speak as if you have never been or maybe went once and stayed outside of the perimeter.  Atlanta has several neighborhoods with 10,000-14,000 people per square mile, and it has at least 5 times as many pre-1930 buildings as Jacksonville does.  The *only* three things Jacksonville has over Atlanta are an abundance of water, better/warmer weather (though I like 4 seasons), and a more extensive "grid" system.  Maybe I would add less corruption on top of that, but aside from massive patronage, city politics here have not bugged me to the core yet.

Altanta has basically 9 Springfields all by itself (and I can name them, each has at least a square mile and is predominantly single family residential with the average home built in 1915 or earlier).

Atlanta has 2 Avondales: Druid Hills (designed by Frederick Law Olmsted) and Brookwood Hills.

Atlanta has a monster Ortega (really like 20 Ortegas combined with 1920s houses that average out to the grandest homes on the river in Ortega): Buckhead

Atlanta has its own really really large San Marco: Brookhaven (around the Capital City Club)

Atlanta also has two Riversides: Little 5 Points and East Atlanta

Atlanta also has something Jacksonville doesn't have at all: an old warehouse district (Castleberry Hill)

This is not to mention Atlanta's downtown was the size of Jacksonville's current downtown by 1940 or 1950 (if you include Midtown).

Also, the town of Roswell outside of the perimeter has a historic core where the buildings were constructed from the 1820s to the 1850s.  It's actually quite a lively place (went to a wedding there once, and there are lots of restaurants, shops, and bars).  Actually, all of the old suburbs have old towns (Stone Mountain, Decatur, Marietta, Roswell, and others).

And you said Atlanta made you feel like you were in a walkable Southside.  Sorry, but we just don't build buildings so bland and cheap looking here.  We certainly have our "Southside" areas, but not in the core.

And regarding charm, you can't beat the pristine "natural" landscaping of the city.  Not only are all of the buildings relatively fixed up and in great shape compared to most of the historic buildings in Jax, the trees and flowers and landscaping here are simply hard to beat.  I feel like in Jax you are looking at a bunch of pines, some scraggly palms, and hardly any landscaping or flowers.  Most of the trees here flower and there is variety, and most people can afford some sort of landscaping.  Perennials are really big here, too.

[simms3]

Atlanta does have one thing Jax does not have, the absolute worst potholes and steel pothole covers in the world. Try driving on them in the rain sometime!

This could not be truer.  Atlanta should just go ahead and write each resident with a car a big fat check for repairs each year.  Detroit doesn't even have half the potholes we do.  I do think part of the problem is that we have HUGE temperature swings nearly all year long.  In the Fall, Winter, and Spring we'll have a couple days below 20 and then a couple days above 60.  Jacksonville has temperature swings, but it never gets really cold enough to do damage to the asphalt when it warms back up.

[peestandingup]

Atlanta certainly has more going for it than Jax's core & we could learn a lot from it, but I personally could take it or leave it as a town. There's just not a lot of charm to it & even the urban areas have a sprawling feel to them. Hard to explain. It's sorta like if Southside Jax were more walkable & had more attractions, then that would remind me of Atlanta in a lot of ways.

BUT, they're the metro of the south & are in a better position than most down here. I just personally don't like the feel of it & prefer more condensity/historic fabric. Older towns that were created from the beginning to be walkable with greater infill & that STAYED somewhat condensed.

Uh ok, you speak as if you have never been or maybe went once and stayed outside of the perimeter.  Atlanta has several neighborhoods with 10,000-14,000 people per square mile, and it has at least 5 times as many pre-1930 buildings as Jacksonville does.  The *only* three things Jacksonville has over Atlanta are an abundance of water, better/warmer weather (though I like 4 seasons), and a more extensive "grid" system.  Maybe I would add less corruption on top of that, but aside from massive patronage, city politics here have not bugged me to the core yet.

Altanta has basically 9 Springfields all by itself (and I can name them, each has at least a square mile and is predominantly single family residential with the average home built in 1915 or earlier).

Atlanta has 2 Avondales: Druid Hills (designed by Frederick Law Olmsted) and Brookwood Hills.

Atlanta has a monster Ortega (really like 20 Ortegas combined with 1920s houses that average out to the grandest homes on the river in Ortega): Buckhead

Atlanta has its own really really large San Marco: Brookhaven (around the Capital City Club)

Atlanta also has two Riversides: Little 5 Points and East Atlanta

Atlanta also has something Jacksonville doesn't have at all: an old warehouse district (Castleberry Hill)

This is not to mention Atlanta's downtown was the size of Jacksonville's current downtown by 1940 or 1950 (if you include Midtown).

Also, the town of Roswell outside of the perimeter has a historic core where the buildings were constructed from the 1820s to the 1850s.  It's actually quite a lively place (went to a wedding there once, and there are lots of restaurants, shops, and bars).  Actually, all of the old suburbs have old towns (Stone Mountain, Decatur, Marietta, Roswell, and others).

And you said Atlanta made you feel like you were in a walkable Southside.  Sorry, but we just don't build buildings so bland and cheap looking here.  We certainly have our "Southside" areas, but not in the core.

And regarding charm, you can't beat the pristine "natural" landscaping of the city.  Not only are all of the buildings relatively fixed up and in great shape compared to most of the historic buildings in Jax, the trees and flowers and landscaping here are simply hard to beat.  I feel like in Jax you are looking at a bunch of pines, some scraggly palms, and hardly any landscaping or flowers.  Most of the trees here flower and there is variety, and most people can afford some sort of landscaping.  Perennials are really big here, too.

Uh, OK. But I wasn't comparing Jax to Atlanta, like at all. Just said Jax could learn some things from Atlanta. If it makes you feel any better & you want my honest opinion, for my money they both suck in the grand scheme of things (just Atlanta sucks less & has much more going for it urban-wise). So yeah, if you're comparing Jax to Atlanta, Atlanta is probably gonna wipe the floor with Jax every time in a lot of the respects we talk about on here. Hell, it'll probably beat out almost every city in a lot of different "urban ways" in the entire Southeast part of the US. But guess what. That's not saying a whole lot. No offense to anyone, just being real about it.

So, I didn't mean any disrespect. We all know you're in love with the place (you only find a way to talk about it in every single thread) & that's OK. You can like what you like. But so can I, and I think its a very bland, institutional town with way too much sprawl for my taste. I prefer more condensed, more historical & a true pedestrian fabric (that was built & stayed that way). Give me a New Orleans or DC any day over an Atlanta or Charlotte. Just my opinion.

P.S. Been there plenty. Been & lived in plenty of other towns too.

[simms3]

Actually I agree with you and would much rather live in New York, DC, Boston, or San Fran, but I went to school in Atlanta, made connections in Atlanta, and entered a very small and exclusive industry (real estate) in Atlanta.  If I could land a killer job in my field in a larger, denser city I would certainly not hesitate to take it on.  I'm damn well travelled myself and I just don't think Atlanta is as "sprawly" in the core as some people make it out to be (the metro sprawls more than Jacksonville, but the developed core stays above 5,000 ppsm).  I also wouldn't compare Atlanta and Charlotte.  It's hard to spot a building pre-1990 in Charlotte (the whole thing just popped out of the ground in the last few decades).  If I had to choose between Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, Miami, or Phoenix, then you know where I stand firm, and I believe for good reason (50% having to do with urbanity and development).

Kind of like as someone said, if it's unrealistic to compare Jacksonville to Atlanta, it's unrealistic to compare Atlanta to New York.  The difference is that Atlanta is becoming New York (albeit slowly and on a newer, smaller scale) and Jacksonville is becoming nothing.

[TheProfessor]

Actually I agree with you and would much rather live in New York, DC, Boston, or San Fran, but I went to school in Atlanta, made connections in Atlanta, and entered a very small and exclusive industry (real estate) in Atlanta.  If I could land a killer job in my field in a larger, denser city I would certainly not hesitate to take it on.  I'm damn well travelled myself and I just don't think Atlanta is as "sprawly" in the core as some people make it out to be (the metro sprawls more than Jacksonville, but the developed core stays above 5,000 ppsm).  I also wouldn't compare Atlanta and Charlotte.  It's hard to spot a building pre-1990 in Charlotte (the whole thing just popped out of the ground in the last few decades).  If I had to choose between Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, Miami, or Phoenix, then you know where I stand firm, and I believe for good reason (50% having to do with urbanity and development).

Kind of like as someone said, if it's unrealistic to compare Jacksonville to Atlanta, it's unrealistic to compare Atlanta to New York.  The difference is that Atlanta is becoming New York (albeit slowly and on a newer, smaller scale) and Jacksonville is becoming nothing.

Having lived in all three cities. JAX has a greater cultural connectoin to NYC than Atlanta.  In terms of urban morphology, Atlanta will always be the dry heart of Dixie, sprawled out like a Texas town.

[mtraininjax]

he difference is that Atlanta is becoming New York (albeit slowly and on a newer, smaller scale)

Unless you find a way to connect the Top End Perimeter to Buckhead to Midtown to Downtown in walkable urban grid, this statement will never happen. Too many neighborhoods with Single Family Housing in the way. Manhattan will not be duplicated in Atlanta, and thankfully so.

[I-10east]

ATL has too may damn 'Peach' named streets! It is soooo confusing, okay I get it, Georgia is the Peach state. ATL & MIA comparasions are pretty funny to me. ATL has more Fortune 500's in it's suburbs than MIA has in it's city limits, and even Jax has more in it's city limits than MIA. But yet the Nat'l media wanna forcefeed that 'MIA is all that, and a bag of chips' bullcrap.

[Lunican]

Interesting article. This quote captures my view of Atlanta.

"Atlanta is left as a sort of “quarter way house” caught between its traditional sprawling self and a more upscale urban metropolis. It offers neither the low traffic quality of life of its upstart competition, nor the sophisticated urban living of a Chicago or Boston."

IS IT GAME OVER FOR ATLANTA?

With growth slowing, a lack of infrastructure investment catching up with it, and rising competition in the neighborhood, the Capital of the New South is looking vulnerable.

Atlanta is arguably the greatest American urban growth story of the 20th century. In 1950, it was a sleepy state capital in a region of about a million people, not much different from Indianapolis or Columbus, Ohio. Today, it's a teeming region of 5.5 million, the 9th largest in America, home to the world's busiest airport, a major subway system, and numerous corporations. Critically, it also has established itself as the country's premier African American hub at a time of black empowerment.

Though famous for its sprawl, Atlanta has also quietly become one of America's top urban success stories. The city of Atlanta has added nearly 120,000 new residents since 2000, a population increase of 28% representing fully 10% of the region's growth during that period. None of America's traditional premier urban centers can make that claim. As a Chicago city-dweller who did multiple consulting stints in Atlanta, I can tell you the city is much better than its reputation in urbanists circles suggests, and it is a place I could happily live.

Yet the Great Recession has exposed some troubling cracks in the foundations of Atlanta's success. Though perhaps it is too early to declare “game over” for Atlanta, converging trends point to a possible plateauing of Atlanta remarkable rise, and the end of its great growth phase.

Full Article:
http://www.newgeography.com/content/001574-is-it-game-over-atlanta

[thelakelander]

The city of Atlanta has added nearly 120,000 new residents since 2000, a population increase of 28% representing fully 10% of the region's growth during that period.

This is a huge misquote.  The City of Atlanta gained less than 4,000 new residents between 2000 and 2010, according to recently released census data.

The city of Atlanta’s population changed less than 1 percent over the last decade, according to figures released Thursday by the U.S. Census Bureau.
A total of 420,003 people currently reside inside Atlanta city limits, including the Cascade community. That’s an increase of 3,529 people from 2000’s figure of 416,474, or 0.8 percent.

http://cascade.patch.com/articles/atlanta-city-limits-population-remains-stable-since-2000-3

[Lunican]

Good catch. I wonder where they pulled the 120,000 number from.

The article was written in May 2010. Were the census estimates projecting 120,000?

[thelakelander]

Probably. They overestimated Atlanta and many other cities.

[Lunican]

It looks like that is exactly what happened and it only serves to validate the point of the original article.

Atlanta’s census count falls below estimates

Where have all the people gone?

When the U.S. Census Bureau reported its 2010 population findings last month, it said it had counted 420,003 people in the city of Atlanta.

That’s 3,529 more people than the Census found in Atlanta in 2000.

But it’s 117,955 fewer people than the Census Bureau’s own estimate of Atlanta’s population in 2008.
“The Atlanta count for 2010 was quite a bit lower than our estimate,” Census spokesman Robert Bernstein admitted.

That’s a bit of an understatement.

http://www.reporternewspapers.net/2011/04/07/atlantas-census-count-falls-estimates/