Elements of Urbanism: Atlanta

[fieldafm]

This segment just focused on downtown, which to me is not the focus of Atlanta any longer, though it is coming back in a strong way.  I would say that Buckhead or Midtown are Atlanta's current focal point

IMO, having lived in the city for a brief period... is where the most appropriate comparison to Jax lies within.  The surrounding neighborhoods are booming(much like Riverside/Avondale and San Marco).  The difference in this comparison is that DT Atlanta does not make it difficult for small businesses to start/operate within their central core.  That's the lesson Jacksonville HAS to learn.

but there is 1 drawback to Atlanta that Jacksonville does have: Water.

Definately in the top 3 reasons why I live here, and not anywhere near Fulton/Dekalb County.

[simms3]

I'm pretty familiar with Atlanta and actually stayed in Buckhead this past trip and in Midtown a few months ago.  I've been following it, development wise, since my older brother lived Vinings back in the late 80s/early 90s.  However, I'm an gritty urbanist at heart and tend to gravitate towards walkable waterfront and industrial cities, which explains why the ATL is not higher up on my list of excitable urban environments (love the industrial lofts and modern architecture of ATL but don't like the density or feel at street level for the most part).  Nevertheless, over the last couple of trips, I have taken several images of some of the neighborhoods you've mentioned and some others such as Cabbagetown, Castleberry Hill and the West End around the cluster of HBCUs and see many areas where Atlanta has excelled that Jax would be smart to follow.

I agree that Atlanta does not provide that industrial environment nearly to the degree of the Upper Midwest and Northeastern cities, but imo Atlanta feels the grittiest and most industrial and densest at street level of any of the Sunbelt cities outside of LA and San Diego.  Considering Atlanta has warehouse/loft districts (such as Castleberry Hill) that are nearly the size of Springfield, I think it does ok in the industrial feel department, though it's always improving and rightly so (we still have a long way to go to compare to Philadelphia, Chicago, Pittsburgh, or even Seattle).

Atlanta and Dallas are often compared in the same light, but having been to Dallas twice, one time of which I stayed in Uptown and experienced Downtown for 3 days, Dallas is about as dead as Jacksonville (though it has apparently picked up some in the last 2 years alone).  Uptown reminded me more of Vinings than Midtown, and Dallas did not fully grasp walkability and its core attributes.

billy,

I have seen the preliminary plans for Green Street's redevelopment of the City Hall East, and it is going to be incredible.  In addition, my company JV'd with North American Properties as the capital partner for Atlantic Station, and the redevelopment there should be quite phenomenal, as well.  You know that the Chelsea Market in New York is a Green Street creation right?  Expect 2 "Chelsea Markets" in Atlanta in the near future! 


I think Atlanta is by far the most sophisticated city in the SE in terms of development, even beating out Miami.  I would much rather be in Midtown than in Brickell, personally.  I, too, like a little bit of grit and history and character, which Miami is sorely lacking in in most areas.  As sprawled as Atlanta is, Atlanta is really the top secondary market for urban development in the country and as such it attracts all of the big players and all of the big money.  Who cares about the sprawl?  New York sprawls even more.  If Jacksonville just copied most of what Atlanta did, it would be in better shape, even with the sprawl.  Charlotte is literally just trying to copy Atlanta (hence why they call themselves the New Atlanta), and look where they have gone!

[urbaknight]

Wow, I guess there are some southerners that know about urban living. What's more is that they actually managed to implement urban fabric. Maybe they can educate the idiots down here. (city leaders and those that voted for them)

[billy]

Just look at Westside Provisions....
by the way, simms 3, where did you see the plans?

[Keith-N-Jax]

I lived in Atl for 8 years. There some parts I miss and do not miss, but I rather be back in Atl than Jax if the opportunity came along.

[thelakelander]

I agree that Atlanta does not provide that industrial environment nearly to the degree of the Upper Midwest and Northeastern cities, but imo Atlanta feels the grittiest and most industrial and densest at street level of any of the Sunbelt cities outside of LA and San Diego.

Gritty sunbelt cities with more walkable urban cores at street level include New Orleans, Memphis, Richmond and Birmingham.  Although metro Atlanta is more than twice the size of these places and has seen the boom of highrises along highway spines (ex. Buckhead, etc.), they still tend to have more compact urban cores at street level.  With that said, all don't have all the ritz and glamour that Atlanta has developed over the last few decades.

Atlanta and Dallas are often compared in the same light, but having been to Dallas twice, one time of which I stayed in Uptown and experienced Downtown for 3 days, Dallas is about as dead as Jacksonville (though it has apparently picked up some in the last 2 years alone).  Uptown reminded me more of Vinings than Midtown, and Dallas did not fully grasp walkability and its core attributes.

I explored Dallas extensively during my last two visits (around 2006 & 2007).  Although I wouldn't want to live there either (the water factor), I prefer it to Atlanta because of the more extensive mass transit system and Fort Worth being close by.

I think Atlanta is by far the most sophisticated city in the SE in terms of development, even beating out Miami.  I would much rather be in Midtown than in Brickell, personally.  I, too, like a little bit of grit and history and character, which Miami is sorely lacking in in most areas.  As sprawled as Atlanta is, Atlanta is really the top secondary market for urban development in the country and as such it attracts all of the big players and all of the big money.  Who cares about the sprawl?  New York sprawls even more.  If Jacksonville just copied most of what Atlanta did, it would be in better shape, even with the sprawl.  Charlotte is literally just trying to copy Atlanta (hence why they call themselves the New Atlanta), and look where they have gone!

I think the major differences between Miami and Atlanta come in the form of culture, diversity and water.  Other than being much denser than Atlanta, those three other elements give these places a completely different vibe.

[simms3]

Just look at Westside Provisions....
by the way, simms 3, where did you see the plans?

I have met the president of Green Street Properties a couple of times (even applied for a job there).  She presented the plans to a group in Buckhead about a month and a half ago.

White Provision is a development partnership between a few interesting players: Weaver and Woodbury and Jamestown.  Everybody knows about Jamestown (major German owner, developer, and operator with their American offices in Atlanta, now wholly owns Green Street Properties, another Atlanta developer which is now probably a top 3 New York City developer by default).  What's interesting is one of the development principals, Chris Faussemagne, is the son of Jack Faussemagne, who was Bill Johnson's CFO at Waffle House/Ritz Carlton.  I got a chance to meet Mr. Jack Faussemagne once and these are some of the most querky, brilliant, and interesting people I have ever met (think Barney Frank in appearance and style with a brain geared for development).

Here is White Provision's website.  This development is a mile west of Midtown in a rapidly developing neighborhood called West Midtown.

White Provisions

[thelakelander]

Speaking of Atlanta, I think a complete streets program for the urban core would be great.  The city has a ton of neighborhood nodes that are disconnected due to narrow undivided four lane streets and disconnected sidewalks.  As the area continues to fill in, more public investment in the bike/ped network will vastly improve things at street level and may actually take some cars off those wide freeways.

[billy]

simms3, are you referring to Mr. Phillips....?

[simms3]

Lake,

New Orleans I agree with, but definitely not Richmond, Memphis, or Birmingham.  Besides, while Atlanta certainly has crime, it does not compare to the crime of NOLA or Memphis (per capita and around downtown).  And the Fan is really the only "unique" thing about Richmond.  Birmingham is deader than doornails and has fewer old skyscrapers (albeit a couple of tall ones) and fewer buildings period.  Jacksonville's downtown is larger than Birmingham's (and maybe even Memphis's at that in terms of GLA).

RE: Dallas, it does have a more light rail track mileage than Atlanta's heavy rail track mileage and is expanding with TIGER money, but does not have the same level of ridership as MARTA.  Also, I really could not get over Dallas's topography and flora/fauna.  Totally flat, brown, no water, oddly painted highways, and an appearance of dust to me.  Never made it over to Fort Worth, but I haven't heard anything about it enough to peek my interest over say Kansas City, Austin, or even San Antonio.  I just don't see how you could prefer Dallas over Atlanta when it is a far more suburban and less sophisticated city within the areas that count (suburbs to suburbs, both suck).

RE: Miami, it is definitely denser than Atlanta on average all across the metro (mainly via street-hostile condos littered all about), but Brickell is really nothing special to me.  I'd say culture and diversity are the defining differences, as well as history, topography, and business climate.  Atlanta is far closer in culture to Miami than Jacksonville is, however.  Both have more of a big city mentality, both have somewhat defining cultures of the city, both have big city amenities, both have heavy mass transit, both have lots of skyscrapers, and both have pretty diverse populations (there are close to 600,000 documented Hispanics in Greater Atlanta, and almost as many Asians, not to mention almost 2 million blacks...Miami beats out everybody in the Hispanic department, has over a million blacks, and does not have many Asians).

[simms3]

simms3, are you referring to Mr. Phillips....?

Katharine Kelley

[simms3]

Speaking of Atlanta, I think a complete streets program for the urban core would be great.  The city has a ton of neighborhood nodes that are disconnected due to narrow undivided four lane streets and disconnected sidewalks.  As the area continues to fill in, more public investment in the bike/ped network will vastly improve things at street level and may actually take some cars off those wide freeways.

Agreed.  In the works in many areas.  There is under development a series of green bike paths to connect Emory and Georgia Tech, which are currently connected via bus.  I agree that many of the streets and sidewalks are narrow, but the sidewalks are being replaced on all major thoroughfares (funding complements of all of the various CIDs).

The major street problems in Atlanta hover around all of the potholes (I mean it's literally worse than Detroit, bla) and the fact that the only semi-grid in the metro is in Downtown/Midtown, and I say semi-grid.  In Jacksonville, the arterials are as wide as the highways.  In Atlanta the highways are 20 lanes wide and the arterials/major thoroughfares are still mostly only 2-4 lanes wide!  And none of them connect!  It's actually amazing what the city has accomplished in terms of urban development considering there is no grid (which gives Miami a huge leg up, BTW).

[thelakelander]

Lake,

New Orleans I agree with, but definitely not Richmond, Memphis, or Birmingham.  Besides, while Atlanta certainly has crime, it does not compare to the crime of NOLA or Memphis (per capita and around downtown).  And the Fan is really the only "unique" thing about Richmond.  Birmingham is deader than doornails and has fewer old skyscrapers (albeit a couple of tall ones) and fewer buildings period.

I'm admit, I wasn't speaking in terms of vibrancy.  I was speaking in terms of built infrastructure and compactness at the pedestrian level within the urban core.  For example, while Richmond's Fan may be the most decent neighborhood in terms of social atmosphere or safety for some, from a built urban environment perspective, Shockoe Slip, Shockoe Bottom, Jackson Ward, Church Hill and Carytown are just as impressive.  


Typical street scene in Richmond's Jackson Ward

To spin it from a Jacksonville perspective, most people tend to focus only on Riverside/Avondale, San Marco and Springfield as the urban districts worth talking about. However, from an urban density and architectural perspective, Durkeeville (our densest neighborhood), Brentwood (wonderful collection of historic bungalow architecture), New Springfield (a historic warehouse district and tons of old school multifamily structures) and the Eastside (still retains a significant amount of compact shotgun housing and historic churches) are just as (if not more impressive) in their own right.


Durkeeville.

Jacksonville's downtown is larger than Birmingham's (and maybe even Memphis's at that in terms of GLA).

Yes, in terms of high rise square footage but not in terms of built density at street level.

So when I speak of urbanity, my mind tends to focus on the built environment and developing solutions to better utilize it, moreso than if its vibrant or not, at a particular moment.  So this is why I tend to value a neighborhood like Jackson Ward in Richmond, or a Durkeeville in Jacksonville, while most recognize them as the hood and advise to stay away.

RE: Dallas, it does have a more light rail track mileage than Atlanta's heavy rail track mileage and is expanding with TIGER money, but does not have the same level of ridership as MARTA.  Also, I really could not get over Dallas's topography and flora/fauna.  Totally flat, brown, no water, oddly painted highways, and an appearance of dust to me.  Never made it over to Fort Worth, but I haven't heard anything about it enough to peek my interest over say Kansas City, Austin, or even San Antonio.  I just don't see how you could prefer Dallas over Atlanta when it is a far more suburban and less sophisticated city within the areas that count (suburbs to suburbs, both suck).

It's proximity to Fort Worth is what puts it over the top.  I actual prefer Fort Worth over Dallas.

RE: Miami, it is definitely denser than Atlanta on average all across the metro (mainly via street-hostile condos littered all about), but Brickell is really nothing special to me.  I'd say culture and diversity are the defining differences, as well as history, topography, and business climate.

I agree about Brickell.  Areas like South Beach, Coconut Grove, Little Havana and Coral Gables have much better flavor.

Atlanta is far closer in culture to Miami than Jacksonville is, however.

+100

Both have more of a big city mentality, both have somewhat defining cultures of the city, both have big city amenities, both have heavy mass transit, both have lots of skyscrapers, and both have pretty diverse populations (there are close to 600,000 documented Hispanics in Greater Atlanta, and almost as many Asians, not to mention almost 2 million blacks...Miami beats out everybody in the Hispanic department, has over a million blacks, and does not have many Asians).

What do you think about Houston and how it compares to Atlanta?

[mtraininjax]

For example, urban Charleston, SC is significantly more walkable

Great, we're here talking about Atlanta though.

I do admit its urban core has come a long way in the last 10-15 years.

Having been in Atlanta from 1987-1998, I would call the growth period from 1990 really the Phoenix years, where the city built itself up from the ground. The Olympics were a HUGE boost from 1990-1996. I still remember where I was when I heard the Olympic committee announcing Atlanta would be hosting, it really made downtown clean up its core like nothing else. Centennial park remains from it, the Aquarium was built next to it, and World of Coke moved from Underground, which has been a failure (twice now), to the CNN/Aquarium/Centennial Park area. Yes, we lack a major park for use in downtown, but we do have the riverwalk and a few parcels of land that can change that.

Atlanta does have one thing Jax does not have, the absolute worst potholes and steel pothole covers in the world. Try driving on them in the rain sometime!

[thelakelander]

For example, urban Charleston, SC is significantly more walkable

Great, we're here talking about Atlanta though.

Right, but you mentioned it wasn't comparable to Jax based off scale.

Comparing to Jacksonville to Atlanta is not fair, by any means. The disparities are endless. Atlanta has over 40 colleges in the metro area, which is 40+ counties large. Atlanta has had these a college presence for over 100 years, and boasts the world's largest airport, numerous super bowls and sporting events. There is probably 1,000x the money there than in Jacksonville, but there is 1 drawback to Atlanta that Jacksonville does have: Water.

My point is that from an urban core planning perspective, we can certainly take note of success and failure strategies in a city like Atlanta and apply or not apply them into improving our setting.