CSX and High Speed Rail

[tufsu1]

Interesting interview with CEO Ward...

http://jacksonville.com/business/2011-04-06/story/csxs-ward-says-he-%E2%80%98can%E2%80%99t-be-part-of%E2%80%99-obama-high-speed-rail-plan

note this quote

"While moving more people by train might make sense for society, letting passenger trains traveling faster than 90 miles per hour share tracks with freight trains doesn’t make business sense, said Ward, whose Jacksonville-based railroad owns 21,000 miles of track east of St. Louis."

and this

"Putting high-speed passenger trains on freight lines is not practical because “the curvature and the elevation of the freight rail” tracks cannot support trains operating at speeds higher than 90 mph, Ward said. Those trains should run on separate tracks, which may cost “tens of billions, if not hundreds of billions” of dollars to build, he said."

which explains why Florida HSR was planned for I-4 and not the CSX tracks...and whySoutheast HSR will be similar!

[Ocklawaha]

For a fraction of the cost of the HSR boondoggle we could buy that CSX mainline, at very least we could operate at 90 mph which still puts us within minutes of the HSR times not to mention CSX goes where the people live so the railroad wouldn't be a "Disney ride". Walk into Wards office with a sack full of additional track capacity, PTC signaling, etc... and watch his eye's light up.

Ward knows well that the tilting trains can and do top out around 110 on conventional tracks, and there is no reason he could bring to court that would convince a 5 year old that it couldn't be done. Which leaves something to be said for the intellect of the fool that came up with the I-4, airport to parking lot idea.

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

well ock....it seems to me that you'd have to do one of the following

1. Convince CSX that passenger trains over 90mph can run on their tracks
2. Convince CSX to sell their tracks

Based on Mr. Ward's statements, #1 seems highly unlikely...and in the case of the mainline between the Lakeland are and Tampa, #2 is also not likely.

So now what?

[thelakelander]

Easy, more highways. Seriously though, just improve Amtrak service in Florida and focus on improving local transit.

[tufsu1]

Easy, more highways. Seriously though, just improve Amtrak service in Florida and focus on improving local transit.

agreed...but, assuming you were charged with developing a high speed rail line (or even a higher (110 mph) speed line), what would you do?

[fsujax]

Dont build it within CSX's ROW!

[Steve]

I've also been one that believes that if we could get good, regular passenger rail running at 90 MPH, that's light years ahead of where we are now.

[fsujax]

^^exactly!

[tufsu1]

I've also been one that believes that if we could get good, regular passenger rail running at 90 MPH, that's light years ahead of where we are now.

again I agree...just looking for Ock (or others) to answer how to build/operate HSR on freight rail lines.

[thelakelander]

Easy, more highways. Seriously though, just improve Amtrak service in Florida and focus on improving local transit.

agreed...but, assuming you were charged with developing a high speed rail line (or even a higher (110 mph) speed line), what would you do?

I would first inquire about why the client believes that passenger rail should be above 110mph or bust (background research).  Then I'd follow up by offering an cheaper alternative in the form of upgrading conventional rail to serve that need (ex. Amtrak corridor service) and show the client how that would save them billions of dollars and attract higher ridership (sometimes the client may not know or understand all the details and options they actually have).  If the client still refused, then I'd take his money and give him what he requested, in a form that makes it as successful as possible (keep client happy).  In the form of HSR down I-4, that would be a hybrid of express and local commuter rail trains.  This has typically been my approach during my professional career.

[tufsu1]

well Lake it seems you understand exactly how Florida ended up with a proposed HSR line right down the middle of I-4

[thelakelander]

I don't really see anything wrong with his statements.  Everybody already knows that rail companies are in the business to make a profit and that passenger rail is a liability for them.  A chunk of us also know that effective intercity rail can be developed at speeds of 90mph and lower. As tufsu1 stated in another thread, you'll have to purchase the ROW from them, throw enough money at them to alleviate their concerns or develop a system on your own ROW. 

However, you can (and we should) do what California has done and work with Amtrak to establish a reliable intercity statewide corridor service.  Locally, we should develop an integrated mass transit system with modes that work best for individual specific corridors.  In some neighborhoods that could mean streetcar, LRT or BRT, all of which have nothing to do with CSX, FEC or their ROW.  In other areas, we may have to purchase track and ROW from rail companies like Orlando plans to do with Sunrail, assuming Rick Scott doesn't torpedo that deal too.

[Ocklawaha]

Your still trying to desperately defend the undesirable TU, going with the most expensive alternative (as HSR would have to assume a pro-rata share of the I-4 right-of-way and improvement costs) in the worst location imaginable, blowing $6 Billion dollars to extend the trip time between home/transit stop in Orlando with destination in Tampa or Lakeland. A model T could do it quicker.

Like Lake said, Railroads are in this game to make a dollar, Florida could extend a huge carrot to CSX in offering $1-2 Billion to create a super railroad corridor from Orlando to Tampa. Had we taken the money and gone for this approach we'd be talking about 110 mph down the east coast, 90 mph with a stop in Ocala, and  79 to Ft. Myers, Pensacola and Naples. Easy. North Carolina has already tapped the competition and you can bet your hand that CSX is watching.

Today, we have made significant progress towards that goal with the signing of a cooperative agreement between USDOT and North Carolina DOT that makes $461 million available for the State of North Carolina to begin work on projects that will reduce travel times and increase reliability for rail passengers, create jobs, and spur economic growth."

"These projects can get under way thanks to the agreement signed today between the State of North Carolina, Norfolk Southern Railway, North Carolina Railroad, and Amtrak. With this agreement in place, North Carolinians will soon be working on 24 rail projects in 11 counties, including the construction of double tracks between Charlotte and Greensboro and 12 new bridges that will eliminate 30 highway-rail crossings. This is the sixth agreement between the states and a host freight railroad for a major high-speed rail corridor funded under the Recovery Act, and it ensures that these grants will improve passenger rail service in North Carolina, while preserving the world class freight rail system we have today."

http://onerail.org/press/2011/03/usdot-north-carolina-dot-and-norfolk-southern-reach-agreement-passenger-rail-investmen

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

is that the same NC whose legislature is now threatening to veto any stimulus spending for high speed rail?

[Ocklawaha]

SECTION I: OUR VISION
THE PROPOSED I-95 CORRIDOR OF THE FUTURE
Our vision of the Corridor will enable both passenger and freight trains to travel faster with greater
safety, reliability, and recoverability, as well as allowing for increased freight and passenger train
volumes.
In particular, we envision a high-speed, time-definite express passenger (110 mph) network and a
scheduled local passenger/commuter network coexisting with a time-definite express freight (50 â€" 60
mph) network and a local industrial freight network.

CSX willing to help spur high-speed rail on Empire Corridor, Schumer says

Earlier this week, Sen. Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) met with CSX Corp. Chairman, President and Chief Executive Officer Michael Ward in Washington, D.C., to discuss the Class I's involvement in bringing high-speed rail to upstate New York.

The state hopes to obtain a portion of the $8 billion included in the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act for high-speed rail. State officials plan to provide 110 mph passenger-rail service on the 430-mile Empire Rail Corridor between Niagara Falls, Albany and New York City.

The New York State Department of Transportation (NYSDOT) has commissioned a study to assess the feasibility of adding a third track dedicated for passenger rail alongside existing track. Because CSX owns the right of way, the state would have to sign a lease or purchase agreement with the Class I to add the infrastructure. During the meeting with Schumer, Ward indicated "a willingness to work with the state so all parties benefit from an upgrade to high-speed rail," Schumer said in a prepared statement.

The senator also noted that priority No. 1 is to bring the rail corridor to a state of good repair, particularly by adding double track between Schenectady and Rensselaer to alleviate a bottleneck, and upgrading the Livington Avenue Bridge over the Hudson River that connects Albany and Rensselaer. Ward said he'd help advance both projects, which are included in Gov. David Paterson's New York State Rail Plan, Schumer said.

http://www.progressiverailroading.com/news/article.asp?id=20024

State, CSX reach deal on high-speed rail

Gov. David A. Paterson agreed, saying: "The deadlock has been broken allowing for the program to move forward." The deadlock occurred when the state â€" under pressure from federal officials insisted that CSX alter an earlier agreement in which the state agreed to operate the trains at no more than 90 mph and keep the tracks 30 feet from the CSX rails. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood dispatched Karen Rae, a top federal rail official, to resolve the dispute earlier this month. And after several meetings, the state and the railroad at least agreed that the studies necessary to complete the rail line could go forward. "Today's agreement is consistent with CSX Transportation's commitment to work with state and federal officials to help find ways to safely and efficiently enhance passenger service in upstate New York, while at the same time ensuring the continued delivery and growth of job-creating, vital, green freight rail service," said CSX spokesman Robert Sullivan. The state has been allocated $151 million in federal stimulus money for work on the high-speed line between Niagara Falls and Albany. Slaughter has been the rail project's main champion in the House, pulling together a bipartisan coalition to support the project and pulling in federal transportation officials to try to resolve the dispute. "I appreciate CSX's readiness to do their part to making the promise of high-speed rail in New York a reality," Slaughter said.
http://www.buffalonews.com/city/article50817.ece

Virginia And CSX Move Forward On High Speed Rail Agreement
Source: Governor of Virginia Posted on: 2nd August 2010

Governor Bob McDonnell today announced that the Commonwealth and CSX Transportation have reached an agreement on key principles regarding the high speed rail stimulus grant awarded to Virginia earlier this year.

A project framework agreement has been submitted to the U.S. Department of Transportation (US DOT), a critical milestone that will allow work to begin on the $75 million shovel-ready project, pending US DOT approval of the agreement.

Speaking about the agreement, Governor McDonnell noted, “Like most states, Virginia’s rail corridors are owned by freight railroads and our success in bringing high speed rail to Virginia depends on cooperative framework agreements with our freight rail partners. Virginia is the first state in the nation to achieve an agreement with a Class One railroad for spending the entire award of a high speed rail stimulus grant, and we look forward to working with CSX and the U.S. Department of Transportation to advance new Virginia projects through this agreement.”

The Arkendale to Powell’s Creek project will increase rail capacity and alleviate a major bottleneck in the congested I-95 rail corridor between Prince William County and Alexandria.

More information regarding this project is available online at http://www.drpt.virginia.gov/news/details.aspx?id=480.

CSX Chairman Michael J. Ward met with Governor McDonnell yesterday to discuss the agreement, Virginia’s high speed rail strategy and next steps to complete the project.

The framework agreement will also help guide the future development of the entire rail corridor along CSX tracks between Centralia (Petersburg, Virginia) and Washington DC.

Chairman Michael J. Ward remarked, “A key challenge to enhancing passenger rail service is adding the rail capacity necessary to ensure efficient passenger operations, while still maintaining the ability to provide the public benefits associated with moving freight by rail.  Virginia and CSX have a long and successful history in adding necessary capacity that improves the rail network in Virginia, and this agreement is a continuation of that cooperative approach.”
http://www.thegovmonitor.com/world_news/united_states/virginia-and-csx-move-forward-on-high-speed-rail-agreement-36384.html

DON'T PISS ON MY LEG AND TELL ME IT'S RAINING...Florida is incompetent in all things rail.

OCKLAWAHA