More Chat about Originalism, Constitutionalism and German Liberalism

[finehoe]

Teabagger??? Okay whatever..go back to drinking your koolaid and live in your perfect little dream world. I have better things to do with my time then try and discuss anything with a closed mind.
Goodbye and good luck to all.

Oh, I see.  You can derisively refer to "good little liberals" living in a "perfect little dream world" but if I return the favor, it's an example of a closed mind.

Typical of the hypocrisy prevalent in so much of conservatism.

[FayeforCure]

Oh and did I mention I did all this on my own- no student loans, housing, welfare, as a single mother at the age of 18? I am sure that type of self efficiency deserves your derision. I obviously do not fit the mold of liberals, I didn't need anyone to "save me" I just did it the old fashion way, with determination and being self efficient. I never thought anyone, including my family or ex-husband owed me anything.

Really, if I may ask: who watched your baby?

I graduated highschool at age 16 and had my masters degree in Economics at age 22, but I DID wait having babies until I was 28, AFTER I had bought a house and a brand new car.

We all do things differently. But we all need help. My husband was probably the first stay-at-home dad in the 80s, but I DID need his help.

Needing help is no shame. The disabled need help EVERY day. Thank God we don't make them feel shameful.

All this self-bravado is disgusting. All it is is a : "I'm better than thou" attitude!!!

Again, who watched your baby while you went to work to pay for your school and living expenses. Where did you live? I am sure you couldn't afford housing on minimum wage!!

Or did you work for the "family business" and got paid $30 per hour.

Now THAT would explain it.

[finehoe]

The Federal Government has no constitutional authority to be in the charity business.

That may be your opinion, but 200 years of Constitutional law says you're wrong.  The federal government certainly expanded its social welfare legislation considerably in the twentieth century, but the roots of current federal social welfare reach back into the earliest years of the nation.

Public welfare in the early 19yh century remained primarily the responsibility of local and to a lesser extent state governments. However, federal assistance was provided to disabled veterans, widows and orphans of veterans, the poor in the District of Columbia, subjugated Indians, merchant marines, and to victims of disasters and calamity.

[NotNow]

Faye,

The preamble of the U. S. Constitution does not convey law, and was not defined in the way that you are using it:

http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#WELFARE

Welfare
welfare n. 1. health, happiness, or prosperity; well-being. [<ME wel faren, to fare well] Source: AHD

Welfare in today's context also means organized efforts on the part of public or private organizations to benefit the poor, or simply public assistance. This is not the meaning of the word as used in the Constitution.


While I am most certainly not omniscient, I did take a few classes on the U. S. Constitution.  The general welfare that you refer to is discussed here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Welfare_clause

The United States Constitution contains two references to "the General Welfare", one occurring in the Preamble and the other in the Taxing and Spending Clause. It is only the latter that is referred to as the "General Welfare Clause" of this document. These clauses in the U.S. Constitution are exceptions to the typical use of a general welfare clause, and are not considered grants of a general legislative power to the federal government[2] as the U.S. Supreme Court has held:

the Preamble to the U.S. Constitution "has never been regarded as the source of any substantive power conferred on the Government of the United States or on any of its Departments";[3][4] and,
that Associate Justice Joseph Story's construction of the Article I, Section 8 General Welfare Clauseâ€"as elaborated in Story's 1833 Commentaries on the Constitution of the United Statesâ€"is the correct interpretation.[5][6] Justice Story concluded that the General Welfare Clause is not an independent grant of power, but a qualification on the taxing power which included within it a power to spend tax revenues on matters of general interest to the federal government.
Thomas Jefferson explained the latter general welfare clause for the United States: “[T]he laying of taxes is the power, and the general welfare the purpose for which the power is to be exercised. They [Congress] are not to lay taxes ad libitum for any purpose they please; but only to pay the debts or provide for the welfare of the Union. In like manner, they are not to do anything they please to provide for the general welfare, but only to lay taxes for that purpose.”[7]

In 1824 Chief Justice John Marshall described in obiter dictum a further limit on the General Welfare Clause in Gibbons v. Ogden: "Congress is authorized to lay and collect taxes, &c. to pay the debts and provide for the common defence and general welfare of the United States. ... Congress is not empowered to tax for those purposes which are within the exclusive province of the States."[8]


The Federal Government with few exceptions stayed within the enumerated Constitutional powers until the twentieth century.  The last seventy years have almost destroyed this country because the central government has overstepped its bounds.  I'll repeat myself, the Federal Government has no Constitutional authority to be in the charity business.

It's not about who is "deserving", it's about how the public purse is supposed to be spent.

[JeffreyS]

I will never understand the group that gets red face mad about the tiny amount of money true loafers are able to suck out of otherwise useful social programs.  Those same people will admit they do not like corporate giveaways that drastically effect our budget and it inspires nothing but an it's legal and you can't trust the government oh well.

[NotNow]

FH,

As you have pointed out, the Federal Government limited its spending to veterans, widows of veterans, and other Federal matters.  That effort is found within the document.  The U. S. Constitution does not enumerate any power to supply "charity".  

I must point out that the USSP, through a series of convoluted steps, has authorized spending in the twentieth century that has led us to the point that we now find ourselves.  There is much debate on the FDR era decisions that continues.

Don't take this to mean that I am opposed to "charity", or even state sponsored "charity".  Quite the opposite.  I simply am pointing out that it is not in the enumerated powers of the Federal Government.

[FayeforCure]

The Federal Government with few exceptions stayed within the enumerated Constitutional powers until the twentieth century.  The last seventy years have almost destroyed this country because the central government has overstepped its bounds.  I'll repeat myself, the Federal Government has no Constitutional authority to be in the charity business.

It's not about who is "deserving", it's about how the public purse is supposed to be spent.

Wow, the US stepping into civilization the way it did in the 20th century has almost destroyed this country?

Wow, I wonder why countries like Germany and the Netherlands with much further reaching safety nets have such vibrant economies?

Now if you mean that the deregulation that started in 1980, which let greed go rampant almost destroyed our nation, THEN I would have to agree with you.

After all, what is sinking the ship...........corporations not paying their fair tax, or the $275 check per week that the unemployed get paid out of the unemployment fund that they and/or their company paid into?

[NotNow]

Jeffrey,

Your are right that in a system as large as ours there will always be a percentage of waste and abuse.  It is just another indicator of the wisdom of the Founding Fathers who designed the government to work at the most local level.  That way we can watch most closely and control more locally.  Mindless bureaucrats in Washington D. C. are more awful than mindless bureaucrats in Tallehassee.  And mindless bureaucrats in Tallahassee are worse than mindless bureaucrats in Jacksonville.  But we can see and control what we have here.  Welfare, schools, and the like are local issues,  and should not feed an enormous, out of control central government.

[JeffreyS]

Jeffrey,

Your are right that in a system as large as ours there will always be a percentage of waste and abuse.  It is just another indicator of the wisdom of the Founding Fathers who designed the government to work at the most local level.  That way we can watch most closely and control more locally.  Mindless bureaucrats in Washington D. C. are more awful than mindless bureaucrats in Tallehassee.  And mindless bureaucrats in Tallahassee are worse than mindless bureaucrats in Jacksonville.  But we can see and control what we have here.  Welfare, schools, and the like are local issues,  and should not feed an enormous, out of control central government.

I could get on board with that if I did not feel our local constituency hadn't recently switched from liking low taxes to worshiping that idea like a theology.

It does bug me how one side of that equation inspires such heated passion and one a shrug and a whatcha gonna do.

[NotNow]

The vibrant economy of the Netherlands is about 1/20th of that of the US.  Germany, whos economy is about 1/4th of that of the US (still due largely to the Marshall Plan and US defense, but that is another story) is famously the most conservative of the European Union members, and yet it remains the most successful despite having to drag the former Soviet (socialist) Eastern half of the country into the twentieth century.  If you follow European news (as I know you do), you will note that Germany is abandoning some of it's twentieth century socialist policies citing them as unsustainable.

I am not defending the screwed up tax policy of the US, although you guys have completely misrepresented "tax credits" and "tax rebates".  The real tax picture of the corporations being discussed is very complex and could not be easily discussed in a forum such as this.  That complexity is one of our problems that we should all (liberal, conservative, libertarian) strive to correct.

[FayeforCure]

Jeffrey,

Your are right that in a system as large as ours there will always be a percentage of waste and abuse.  It is just another indicator of the wisdom of the Founding Fathers who designed the government to work at the most local level.  That way we can watch most closely and control more locally.  Mindless bureaucrats in Washington D. C. are more awful than mindless bureaucrats in Tallehassee.  And mindless bureaucrats in Tallahassee are worse than mindless bureaucrats in Jacksonville.  But we can see and control what we have here.  Welfare, schools, and the like are local issues,  and should not feed an enormous, out of control central government.

I do NOT agree. If you live in a small town there is not enough of a base to provide it all.

Besides local control has given us wasteful theological abstinence only programs like SOS in our local schools. And at the state level, they want to mandate that creatonism gets taught in the science class of our schools  

I do not want my taxes to be used for that. What you teach in your churches is your business, but what gets taught in Public School is EVERYBODY's business.

[NotNow]

Jeffrey,

Your are right that in a system as large as ours there will always be a percentage of waste and abuse.  It is just another indicator of the wisdom of the Founding Fathers who designed the government to work at the most local level.  That way we can watch most closely and control more locally.  Mindless bureaucrats in Washington D. C. are more awful than mindless bureaucrats in Tallehassee.  And mindless bureaucrats in Tallahassee are worse than mindless bureaucrats in Jacksonville.  But we can see and control what we have here.  Welfare, schools, and the like are local issues,  and should not feed an enormous, out of control central government.

I could get on board with that if I did not feel our local constituency hadn't recently switched from liking low taxes to worshiping that idea like a theology.

It does bug me how one side of that equation inspires such heated passion and one a shrug and a whatcha gonna do.

I understand your hesitation.  I like to think that we as a community can take care of our needy.  I have found the people of Jacksonville to be very generous when the cause is just.  Much of the anti-tax sentiment here is (justly, I think) based on enormous waste of our hard earned funds by politicians of all stripes.  I honestly believe (as did the wise men who founded this country) that political power, when possible, should be placed as locally as possible.

[FayeforCure]

The vibrant economy of the Netherlands is about 1/20th of that of the US.  Germany, whos economy is about 1/4th of that of the US (still due largely to the Marshall Plan and US defense, but that is another story) is famously the most conservative of the European Union members, and yet it remains the most successful despite having to drag the former Soviet (socialist) Eastern half of the country into the twentieth century.  If you follow European news (as I know you do), you will note that Germany is abandoning some of it's twentieth century socialist policies citing them as unsustainable.

I am not defending the screwed up tax policy of the US, although you guys have completely misrepresented "tax credits" and "tax rebates".  The real tax picture of the corporations being discussed is very complex and could not be easily discussed in a forum such as this.  That complexity is one of our problems that we should all (liberal, conservative, libertarian) strive to correct.

Oh, now it's the complexity of letting corporations get away with NOT paying taxes. Just so you know it: the GDP of the Netherlands is the exact same as of Florida. But because FL has a population of 19 million and the Netherlands has one of 16 million, the Per capita GDP in the Netherlands is much higher than in FL.

I wonder how they can afford to pay universal healthcare for ALL its citizens?

And they are not even going bankrupt? The horror...........that is so against what Republicans always claim.

Ah, I wonder if it's because they do not tolerate the kind of corporate tax dodging that the US is sooooooooo infamous for:

Samuels said at a tax forum in February that GE needs a tax system that will let it compete effectively with giant, foreign-based multinationals like Mitsubishi, Siemens (Germany), and Phillips(Netherlands). However, their effective tax rates for earnings purposes last year were 40 percent, 31 percent and 26 percent respectively, compared with 7 percent for GE. (GE says its tax rate's been artificially low the past few years, and will soon rise.)

Did I forget to mention that the Netherlands is the size of greater Jacksonville?

The Dutch are known all over the world for driving a hard bargain, but they do it with a heart!!!

[NotNow]

Jeffrey,

Your are right that in a system as large as ours there will always be a percentage of waste and abuse.  It is just another indicator of the wisdom of the Founding Fathers who designed the government to work at the most local level.  That way we can watch most closely and control more locally.  Mindless bureaucrats in Washington D. C. are more awful than mindless bureaucrats in Tallehassee.  And mindless bureaucrats in Tallahassee are worse than mindless bureaucrats in Jacksonville.  But we can see and control what we have here.  Welfare, schools, and the like are local issues,  and should not feed an enormous, out of control central government.

I do NOT agree. If you live in a small town there is not enough of a base to provide it all.

Besides local control has given us wasteful theological abstinence only programs like SOS in our local schools. And at the state level, they want to mandate that creatonism gets taught in the science class of our schools  

I do not want my taxes to be used for that. What you teach in your churches is your business, but what gets taught in Public School is EVERYBODY's business.

You are entitiled to your opinion.  

Small towns have taken care of their own for centuries.  Specialized and more technical services can be financed on a city, county, or state level as required.

And I have already agreed with you that NO ONE should be teaching our children sexuality, values, or religion in our public schools, that is our job at home.  

[Garden guy]

Republicans and conservative Americans seems to care less about what other countries are doing and how they have overcome certain situations...we are all neighbors...why should'nt we learn from them....