YAY, Let The Bidding Begin!!! Here we come: High Speed Rail for Florida!!!!

[thelakelander]

From my perspective, we (Jacksonville) are getting nowhere with this approach.  I believe that we do need a public advertising campaign.  But not a poorly prepared low budget approach.  We are competing with heavily funded industries working hard to brainwash people every day that all of your life problems are solved when you purchase their fancy new car.

The easiest way to sink a public advertising campaign is for the opposition to offer up your existing system as proof of failure.  Instead of spending money trying to convince suburbanites to pay more for mass transit, first start off by actually trying to make the system you do have, reliable and end user friendly.  This incremental approach will do two things:

1. It allows at least your urban core to progress immediately with reliable mass transit as its backbone.

2. It gives the local population the opportunity to see what good transit can do for the community.

Get these two things in place and a public advertising campaign will be a much easier sell.

And we can't sell them on just a fancy new train, either.  We have to show them how this will impact their life - that it truly will solve some of their problems (time, health, environment).

More reason to better utilize what we already have.  Its not about a new train or bus.  Its also not about throwing millions towards mass transit.  Its about creating and showing the ability to operate a reliable system and is convenient and end user friendly.  Btw, we also have a time limit.  I believe the gas tax expires in 2017.  If JTA can't successfully demonstrate their importance by then (their going to need more than an ad campaign to overcome their current image), then they're going to lose a significant chunk of funding used to maintain and operate what they already have.

This only further demonstrates how much better private industry is than government at accomplishing goals.  Industries know that you can't just roll out a product and hope people will use it.  You have to market the item HEAVILY.  You have to educate the masses about how wonderful it is.  I don't see any of that.

The difference is, we already have a product.  Its been around in Jacksonville for over 100 years and, since 1936, its gotten progressively worse.  So we're not rolling out anything new.  A demonstration corridor or network, only improves what's already in place.  With that said, that corridor or network, needs to be in a place where high ridership already exists, there's decent population density, major destinations impacted and good potential for TOD.  The clock is ticking.  

[dougskiles]

Lakelander, I agree that we need to do all of the things you are talking about AND we need to ramp up the public perception campaign.  It takes more than a succesful idea to win people over.  The 'build it and they will come' mentality is more myth than reality.  Timing has to be right and public acceptance has to be right.  From what I can see, we are getting closer.

With regard to the Skyway expansion project I have been working on, the reason I have started at the community level and not with JTA and politicians, is that I want to build public support - at least locally.  And at some point I realize that the campaign will need to extend beyond our neighborhood.  But it has to start here.

The clock is ticking. 

Yes it is - so why not get ready for a full-court press?  Why not advertise?  And it doesn't mean that we advertise to pump people up about JTA.  Let's get together sometime and talk about it.  Too much to cover for an online discussion.

[Ocklawaha]

There are no 50 million passengers coming out of OIA, OIA says it's more like 18 million a year.

nice try, but you're only looking at enplanements (i.e., boardings)....the reality is that airports assume that every person boarding is also equated by a passenger disembarking...so the real # for total passengers at OIA (the largest passenger airport in FL) was 36 million in 2007...and yes, it is expected that by 2030, OIA will carry more than 50 million passengers.

for comparison, Jax. had about 6 million passengers in 2007 and 2008

Is that 14 Million passenger gap really going to close in the current economy or shall we gamble and risk the future of the entire passenger rail industry on what you hope will happen? 

Think of Southern California, people go there by car, by air, by bus, and about 3% go there by rail, VERY GOOD RAIL BY THE WAY. If your going to "California Adventure," you fly into John Wayne and grab a rental car, some will use package tours which are 99.9% motor coach which leaves a generous .1% for "others." Without being anchored to the national network - with an already existing high frequency and heavy patronage your sunk. This is a classic case of a "SOLUTION LOOKING FOR A PROBLEM." 

As planners, we get paid either way, but what sucks is down the road when an entire industry suffers because we went with the flow... Yeah, You, Lake and Myself could all get a paycheck, but at what cost to our State and our Nation, let alone an industry literally fighting for it's life in the halls of Washington, DC.  Since 1971 there have been those who expected or expect Amtrak to go away, Nixon himself in spite of huge credit for doing something about the passenger train problems of his era, didn't think it would last a decade. Today the entire industry in North America still looks something like this2005 chart:

Mode of passenger transport    Passenger-miles
(millions)    Percent
Highway............4,884,557    88.79%
Buses.................162,908    2.96%
Air Carriers..........583,689    10.61%
Rail â€" total...........30,972    0.56%
Transit.................16,118    0.29%
Commuter..............9,473    0.17%
Intercity/Amtrak......5,381    0.10%
All other modes (e.g., ferryboats)    2,091    0.04%
Source: 2005 estimates by the Bureau of Transportation Statistics

So 99.4% of all passenger miles traveled are by automobile or by air, and you REALLY believe that it's worth the future of our industry to gamble that 5% will show up at the station? We need a solid plan, in a well developed mass transit setting and FLORIDA - sorry folks, isn't it.  In Florida we need a successful plan to develop and improve usage just to get us to step B, but all the spin and hype in the world on this project isn't going to fill a seat and vault us over step B-Y to get to Z. We are skipping the most critical parts and those parts will operate on the existing railroad lines and highways.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

With regard to the Skyway expansion project I have been working on, the reason I have started at the community level and not with JTA and politicians, is that I want to build public support - at least locally.  And at some point I realize that the campaign will need to extend beyond our neighborhood.  But it has to start here.

It already started.  The skyway project you're selling has already made it into the mobility plan, so a long term funding mechanism and structure is in place for it.  It took us about five years to get to this point, so now we all need to see it through and this is where your help has been beneficial in selling it to the business community that will be impacted by it.

The clock is ticking.  

Yes it is - so why not get ready for a full-court press?  Why not advertise?  And it doesn't mean that we advertise to pump people up about JTA.  Let's get together sometime and talk about it.  Too much to cover for an online discussion.

There's nothing wrong with an advertising campaign as long as it doesn't become a priority over the central focus of immediate system improvement and better utilization of the assets and funding we already have in place.  If not, an ad campaign to suburbanites for a bad product can be damaging to the overall goal.  Another thing to keep in mind, is what would the ad campaign to suburbanites be for?  Just education in general or a future request for additional tax dollars for a massive mass transit project?  Let's get together soon (perhaps at one of our Monday meeting nights) to discuss in greater detail.

[dougskiles]

There's nothing wrong with an advertising campaign as long as it doesn't become a priority over the central focus of immediate system improvement and better utilization of the assets and funding we already have in place.

They have to work together to be effective.  Sometimes one may be in front of the other and then the roles reverse.  I'm not an expert but from where I sit, just having public workshops isn't getting enough people excited about it.

If not, an ad campaign to suburbanites for a bad product can be damaging to the overall goal.  Another thing to keep in mind, is what would the ad campaign to suburbanites be for?  Just education in general or a future request for additional tax dollars for a massive mass transit project?

Again, I'm not an expert on marketing, but I think that there should be some general education efforts.  At least that is where it starts.  Planting the seed in their minds.  We would not want to start with specifics.  The idea is to get people thinking "what if there is another way?"  Then guess who provides the answer to that question.

[JeffreyS]

Just an educational campaign that lets people know things like.  When the 50 million dollar First Union (Wachovia) building went up and started paying property tax and employing people they sited the Skyway proximity as a contributing factor. Similar stories with the Hilton Gardens and many others in the area.  people do not realize the biggest benefit of the skyway is not the fares collected. They really don't.

[thelakelander]

That can and should already be done. This should continue to occur as improvements are being made to the existing system. Advertising, as described above, would fall into better "utilization of existing system assets" category.

[FayeforCure]

Just an educational campaign that lets people know things like.  When the 50 million dollar First Union (Wachovia) building went up and started paying property tax and employing people they sited the Skyway proximity as a contributing factor. Similar stories with the Hilton Gardens and many others in the area.  people do not realize the biggest benefit of the skyway is not the fares collected. They really don't.

I think this is very true..........they are called the intangibles...........very hard for the average citizen to understand.

That's why the brainwashing continues to be:

smaller government and lower taxes

THAT is why public transportation gets the short shrift.

[thelakelander]

You'll have convince JTA first. Mass transit, especially rail based, isn't their top priority at the moment. Road construction, becoming an RTA, winning federal BRT money and an office building at the JTC all rank higher. If you can get them on board, you'll have an advertising budget to work with.

[Ocklawaha]

When the 50 million dollar First Union (Wachovia) building went up and started paying property tax and employing people they sited the Skyway proximity as a contributing factor. Similar stories with the Hilton Gardens and many others in the area.  people do not realize the biggest benefit of the skyway is not the fares collected. They really don't.

I think this is very true..........they are called the intangibles...........very hard for the average citizen to understand.

That's why the brainwashing continues to be:

smaller government and lower taxes

THAT is why public transportation gets the short shrift.

Well it must just be "Another Pleasant Valley Sunday, Charcoal burning everywhere, Rows of houses that are all the same, And no one seems to care..." Faye and I agree on something.

If I can find it I'll post a photo or two of an education program just like your talking about... TRANSIT 101, right here in JACKSONVILLE!

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

There are no 50 million passengers coming out of OIA, OIA says it's more like 18 million a year.

nice try, but you're only looking at enplanements (i.e., boardings)....the reality is that airports assume that every person boarding is also equated by a passenger disembarking...so the real # for total passengers at OIA (the largest passenger airport in FL) was 36 million in 2007...and yes, it is expected that by 2030, OIA will carry more than 50 million passengers.

for comparison, Jax. had about 6 million passengers in 2007 and 2008

Is that 14 Million passenger gap really going to close in the current economy or shall we gamble and risk the future of the entire passenger rail industry on what you hope will happen?  

sure...growth from 36 million to 50 million is only 2% per year (from 2011 to 2030)....seems entirely reasonable since air traffic has stabilized and is trending up again....and the Orlando area population was growing at rates faster than that up until a few years ago.

[thelakelander]

Not to mention that the airport also serves Polk and Brevard residents (1.1 million combined). Florida's 2010 census numbers are expected to be released this week. I fully expect metro Polk's growth rate to be higher than metro Orlando's over the last decade. On the other hand, Brevard may take a hit going forward, with the closing of the space program.

[Ocklawaha]

Yeah right Boys, so I'll post a sign above the work site that says, "Florida High Speed - King of the Rails..."
I'll walk away from this fools errand and wash my hands. "I am innocent of the death of American High Speed Rail."

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

I doubt they get anything but if they do, the gift is in the infrastructure. Even down the center of I-4, it would serve more tourist and commuters as commuter rail. If issued for RFP, I would be interested to see if a group would propose a hybrid system with local and express trains?  Also, if this thing were extended to the coast, via the Bee Line, I wonder if it would be possible to ship freight from Port Canaveral to Central Florida on it?

[Ocklawaha]

See my musings on my post at:
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,11471.msg208869/topicseen.html#new

We're back on the same page.

OCKLAWAHA