YAY, Let The Bidding Begin!!! Here we come: High Speed Rail for Florida!!!!

[Ocklawaha]

 There are significant barriers to air travel causing it to be inefficient at short distances. These barriers include accessing airports located outside the metropolitan core, onerous security processes, long check-in times, and airport delays and congestion. These time barriers to air travel result in significant time advantages to efficient rail service.

accessing airports located outside the metropolitan core

airport delays

and WTF, let's toss in PARKING hassles

Here are about 99 of the reasons why ORLANDO INTERNATIONAL is a STUPID choice for a terminal. A way-station yes, but a terminus or hub terminal, NO WAY.

OCKLAWAHA

[dougskiles]

The fact is, they are screwed, Sunrail is screwed, Tri-Rail is screwed, FEC/Amtrak is screwed and Jax commuter rail is a no go as long as Scott is in Tallahassee.  We might as well stop dreaming and face reality.  Nothing significant on any level is going to happen the next couple of years.  We might as well use this indefinite delay to improve what we already have locally and to get this done, its going to mean electing a mayor who will at least acknowledge the importance of mass transit on our communities.

I have been following the conversation in the education community about how they are going to handle the projected budget cuts.  What I am seeing is amazing.  People are coming together looking at ways to radically change the system - and in ways that will involve more community participation.  The same can happen in the transportation industry.  Nothing motivates me personally to find new solutions more than when I run out of the money that I had been depending on to maintain current my lifestyle.

So the irony is that when we have the money to build a new system, we are complacent and don't do anything different.  When times are tight, we get more creative and find ways to get things done.

[FayeforCure]

Ock, not sure where you are quoting from..........Florida came in 100th place in a ranking?

Come on, does that even sound remotely true??!!??!!

I assume they are referring to a very old study done by America2050 in 2009, that was grossly incomplete. While the updated 2011 study by America 2050 was also largely incomplete ( ignoring the all important tourism factor in Central Florida of which conceptually 5% may ride the train, giving the HSR the 2.5 million ridership needed to make the HSR line feasible), they have gone out of their way to make sure publications do not abuse their rankings because of the severe limitations as the advantages of Florida are just not comparable to other regions.

is the most promising corridor in Florida, while also possessing several key attributes that make it an excellent project. These include project readiness and public ownership of the right of way for the initial segment. Because of the difficulty in quantifying these important attributes, they were not accounted for in our report scoring system, but of all rail corridors in the nation currently being discussed, Florida's first leg - Tampa to Orlando - leads the nation in feasibility.

The importance of feasibility cannot be overstated.

http://www.america2050.org/2011/01/why-and-how-floridas-high-speed-rail-line-must-be-built.html

Besides we have a new independent report the FDOT released that shows the profitability of Florida HSR, even generating over $10 million in the first year alone.

Ah, so I was right, Ock is misleadingly referring to the city pair report, that the authors have acknowledged was very limited in scope by not taking into account the strengths of Florida's HSR. They strongly cautioned that the report does not change the single fact that according to these authors themselves:

of all rail corridors in the nation currently being discussed, Florida's first leg - Tampa to Orlando - leads the nation in feasibility.

The importance of feasibility cannot be overstated.

PLEASE, PLEASE Ock stop trying to mislead the readers here. If you quote a study, please note what the authors are saying about their own study!!!

[FayeforCure]

“If there’s any opportunity for us to revive high speed rail and bring it to Florida, we should explore it,” said Tampa Mayor Pam Iorio. “I need more facts. But in talking to our attorneys about it we have felt all along that we could create an entity between the cities that could receive the funds.”

The coalition, though, will still need cooperation from Scott.

The right-of-way for the tracks, largely along Interstate 4, belongs to the state. And technical assistance will need to come from the Florida Department of Transportation, which is under Scott’s control.

“It’s an arm of the government that would have to be helpful,” Iorio said. “Just as they are helpful if we do a road project. At some point it would get to the point of absurdity if they help with roads and bike paths and expressways but they won’t be helpful with a multi-billion dollar project an entity wants to do in conjunction with the private sector.”



Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/03/11/2110945/high-speed-rail-in-florida-still.html#ixzz1GPyAwg6U

Go Pam, Paula and Audrey for calling out the sillies!!

[thelakelander]

Doug, getting creative with financing isn't the issue. What we're facing right now is dealing with and overcoming a stubborn idealogy. It's an argument where facts don't really matter as long as it's tied in with a national partisan battle. I believe we'll have an easier time addressing things on the local front than we will at the state level during Scott's term in Tallahassee.

[dougskiles]

I wasn't talking about financing.  I'm talking about entirely new ways of doing things.  When there is no longer money available to do things the way you have always done them, the best course is often looking to do different things.

I completely agree - and have been saying all along - that we should be looking at transit at the local level first.  I have always felt that connecting cities with rail systems when the cities themselves are completely car dependent is backwards.

Another point that we often overlook when accusing Scott and the others is that a large percentage of the population agrees with them or they would not have been elected.  The way to change the system is to change public perception.  I believe we are wasting our time trying to change Scott's mind as long as he feels he has the backing of these people.  Our focus should be on a public advertising campaign to portray a different view.

Imagine a series of advertisements that show how much personal time a working parent will get back with their children if they can work while they are commuting?  Or watching the cash register ring up as they continue to drive everywhere?  Or scenes of people stuck in traffic versus a fast moving train?  Signs that are strategically placed while people are at a standstill on JTB or waiting for the train that is stopped in San Marco?

Where are all these efforts?  Do you remember the campaign that Delaney waged in support of BJP?  We need something along those lines.

[buckethead]

Clearly Team Scott doesn't own real estate in the vicinity of the HSR proposal.

A more savvy Governor would have figured out a way to keep 2 Billion in his state, poor planning by the previous regime notwithstanding.

Is Rick Scott a Floridian?

[dougskiles]

Is Rick Scott a Floridian?

Doesn't matter - he was elected by Floridians.  He didn't get a majority - but he did get more votes than his opponents.  Rick Scott is not the problem.  The problem (for some of us) is the reality that enough people in our state wanted him in office.

[tufsu1]

Is Rick Scott a Floridian?

not really....he moved here less than 10 years ago

[JeffreyS]

Is Rick Scott a Floridian?

Doesn't matter - he was elected by Floridians.  He didn't get a majority - but he did get more votes than his opponents.  Rick Scott is not the problem.  The problem (for some of us) is the reality that enough people in our state wanted him in office.

+1  There is a reason so many episodes of COPS are filmed in our state.  As my midwestern wife would ask "why are there so many Hoosiers here?"

[Ocklawaha]

PLEASE, PLEASE Ock stop trying to mislead the readers here. If you quote a study, please note what the authors are saying about their own study!!!

Ock, not sure where you are quoting from..........Florida came in 100th place in a ranking?

Come on, does that even sound remotely true??!!??!!

Actually if I were doing the study Florida would rank around 50-60, but the current plan from OIA to Convention Center to Disney (clearly a well connected commuter train territory) and on to Polk Station to Lakeland to a city bus stop in Tampa wouldn't even be considered. So YES IT SOUNDS VERY TRUE.  

...ignoring the all important tourism factor in Central Florida of which conceptually 5% may ride the train, giving the HSR the 2.5 million ridership needed to make the HSR line feasible

Which is a completely bogus number and you know it Faye... You even paused the argument last week to tell me you didn't know where they came up with the numbers. FACT IS, those numbers sounded good so lets make it fit! There are no 50 million passengers coming out of OIA, OIA says it's more like 18 million a year.  So if 50 million are visiting Central Florida 32 million of them are either already in their own automobiles or riding Amtrak - neither of which will need a "High Speed Ride." So your 5% number drops down to around 800,000 passengers a year...hardly the "profit panecia they have attempted to paint by using the larger number on the one hand, then quickly inserting the airport as a 5% gathering point...BOGUS 100%. You keep bringing back that same 2.4 million and now a newer HIGHER bogus number, even though there is NO basis for believing it.

These include project readiness and public ownership of the right of way for the initial segment. Because of the difficulty in quantifying these important attributes, they were not accounted for in our report scoring system, but of all rail corridors in the nation currently being discussed, Florida's first leg - Tampa to Orlando - leads the nation in feasibility.

...the advantages of Florida are just not comparable to other regions.

Their not quantified because freeway ownership and paper doesn't add a single passenger to any train, while it might look like a slam dunk, somewhere they will need to attract riders. So what advantages? People? Every other market in the top 99 has them... Trains? Every railroad has them... That leaves ownership of a  freeway with permits already pulled... OH MY GOD, I just realized the Arlington Expressway is a freeway and we own it too... We can FAST TRACK the permits. Wow let's build HSR to Regency Square! Oh and that little Commodore Point Expressway? High Speed Rail to "Sticks and Stuff." Don't forget that little connector between North Main and I-95, HIGH SPEED RAIL TO ANHEUSER-BUSCH!  Now there's a plan the city would get behind and it would probably carry more people then the I-4 route will.

Besides we have a new independent report the FDOT released that shows the profitability of Florida HSR, even generating over $10 million in the first year alone.

Well, CHA-CHING! Let's build a dozen of them, using their fuzzy math that ought to get us $120 million in the first year.

The importance of chicanery cannot be overstated.  Florida's first leg - Tampa to Orlando - leads the nation in chicanery...  And I suppose it will be some "certain political party" that caused it all, when this implodes and HSR all goes to hell in a hand basket?

PLEASE, PLEASE Ock stop trying to mislead the readers here. If you quote a study, please note what the authors are saying about their own study!!!

Why Fay? So when it fails we can all look stupid together? Those authors hit the main and very broad points that actually will mean something to a railroad operation. Facts that they dug out themselves and have quickly tried to spin into the "build at any cost" line of thinking. The most more statements that in spite of the broad points, almost all of which go against Florida's current project, we should build it anyway because we can are meaningless. The whole study is enough to set every signal from Richmond to Miami .

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

I wasn't talking about financing.  I'm talking about entirely new ways of doing things.  When there is no longer money available to do things the way you have always done them, the best course is often looking to do different things.

One of the best plans I've heard has come out of the dreaded conservative camp... Offer the private railroads the equipment pools and all property and staff involved in the operation of any Amtrak trains that currently run on their track... FOR FREE. The next step is to give them an incentive with a curve. Here is an example using hypothetical numbers-the real numbers enough to make this attractive would have to be figured out by the bean counters. 100% tax credit applicable on a route by route basis, for the total fixed costs of operation-maintenance-advertising-improvements, and offer an additional higher 5% for each improvement in : marketing, sales, additional trains, new routes...etc. This idea could easily shift the momentum back to the railroads where it rightfully belongs.

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

There are no 50 million passengers coming out of OIA, OIA says it's more like 18 million a year.

nice try, but you're only looking at enplanements (i.e., boardings)....the reality is that airports assume that every person boarding is also equated by a passenger disembarking...so the real # for total passengers at OIA (the largest passenger airport in FL) was 36 million in 2007...and yes, it is expected that by 2030, OIA will carry more than 50 million passengers.

for comparison, Jax. had about 6 million passengers in 2007 and 2008

[thelakelander]

I wasn't talking about financing.  I'm talking about entirely new ways of doing things.  When there is no longer money available to do things the way you have always done them, the best course is often looking to do different things.

Considering mass transit is cheaper than building roads (our current solution to transportation issues), I think we'll be fine heading into the long term future.  We simply can't afford continuing to do things the way we have and eventually, we'll either bankrupt ourselves or begin to invest in cheaper alternative options of mobility.

I completely agree - and have been saying all along - that we should be looking at transit at the local level first.  I have always felt that connecting cities with rail systems when the cities themselves are completely car dependent is backwards.

I actually prefer the Central Florida model where they were tapping into a mix of funding mechanisms to establish both simultaneously.  Before the events of the last couple of weeks, the plan to establish BRT (Tampa), commuter rail (Orlando) and intercity rail (HSR) connecting with the local systems by 2015 was pretty impressive.  With the change in Tallahassee, it looks like Tampa's BRT lines will be the only thing to come online before 2015 down there.

Another point that we often overlook when accusing Scott and the others is that a large percentage of the population agrees with them or they would not have been elected.  The way to change the system is to change public perception.

I look at is as being quite the opposite, we just don't really notice up here in Jax because we're about a decade behind our peers on issues like this.  We're clearly a swing state.  Considering we've (Central/South Florida) been pushing for rail for decades now, it appears a good chunk of the public is demanding alternative forms of mobility.  I truly believe that public perception is good enough to the point to get projects pushed through (ex. HSR, Sunrail, Tri-rail, FEC/Amtrak, etc.).  Its just a matter of working to get full funding driven through when opportunity knocks.  Nevertheless, with any issue, you'll always have opposition.  If you don't open the door when opportunity knocks, you give the opposition a chance to stop you dead in your tracks.  

I believe we are wasting our time trying to change Scott's mind as long as he feels he has the backing of these people.  Our focus should be on a public advertising campaign to portray a different view.

Imagine a series of advertisements that show how much personal time a working parent will get back with their children if they can work while they are commuting?  Or watching the cash register ring up as they continue to drive everywhere?  Or scenes of people stuck in traffic versus a fast moving train?  Signs that are strategically placed while people are at a standstill on JTB or waiting for the train that is stopped in San Marco?

Where are all these efforts?  Do you remember the campaign that Delaney waged in support of BJP?  We need something along those lines.

I don't think we need something like this unless the goal is to ask people to vote to increase their taxes to pay for mass transit.  At this point, I don't believe a tax increase for mass transit is needed.  In architecture, we were taught that a picture speaks a thousand words.  We should apply this same concept to mass transit, just like they've done in cities like Charlotte and Salt Lake City.  

Seeing is believing.  Whether its a local bus system modification, BRT, better utilizing the existing skyway or working with the mobility plan to get the initial streetcar starter line underway, we need a cheap demonstration project.  Something that residents can see, touch and track for themselves.  If we can get one line/corridor up and running with reliable end user friendly service and integrated with the urban land uses surrounding it, we can use that as an example of what viable mass transit can do for the community.  Considering its worked in other cities, like Charlotte, Houston and Salt Lake City, I think we should give it a try.

[dougskiles]

From my perspective, we (Jacksonville) are getting nowhere with this approach.  I believe that we do need a public adverstising campaign.  But not a poorly prepared low budget approach.  We are competing with heavily funded industries working hard to brainwash people every day that all of your life problems are solved when you purchase their fancy new car.

And we can't sell them on just a fancy new train, either.  We have to show them how this will impact their life - that it truly will solve some of their problems (time, health, environment).

This only further demonstrates how much better private industry is than government at accomplishing goals.  Industries know that you can't just roll out a product and hope people will use it.  You have to market the item HEAVILY.  You have to educate the masses about how wonderful it is.  I don't see any of that.