LaHood in talks with Charlotte over FL HSR funds

[Dashing Dan]

I'm not happy about what Scott did. 

I'd like to think that the FL HSR project would have been good for Jacksonville if it had been allowed to proceed.

BUT...

Given that Scott did kill the FL HSR project I am now looking for a way that Jacksonville could benefit from an investment in HSR that would be somewhere outside of FL.

In addition, and without commenting on any specific HSR projects in Florida or elsewhere, I generally favor projects that are not based on a "ready-fire-aim" approach.

[thelakelander]

So we agree?

Yes, although my concern is not so much Jacksonville on the high speed rail front, as it is on the political relationship between the state and federal government for moving our local transit projects forward.

[Dashing Dan]

I share your concern over what a damaged federal-state relationship might portend for Jacksonville transit projects. 

So what can we do?  Disavow Gov. Scott?  Jacksonville got him elected in the first place! 

All I can think of to suggest right now is to try to find worthwhile transit projects that could be carried out with minimal funding and with help from our new mayor, our current planning director, and our friends at the JTA.

[thelakelander]

Here are the low hanging fruit, imo:

1. Restructuring and better utlization out of the current bus system and BRT proposals to tie the urban core neighborhoods together with reliable frequent transit service.

2. Better utilization and integration of the skyway (with bus service and downtown development plans).

3. Take advantage of the mobility plan to get the initial streetcar and S-line fixed-transit projects off the ground.

[Dashing Dan]

To expand on your #1 and #2 options, I'd like to see the downtown trolleys restored to at least what they were like in 2008, i.e.

1-Bring back the Laura Ocean trolley
2-Shorten the Bay St. and Beaver St. routes, and
3-Increase frequencies on all routes

If we could add trolley routes that would extend from skyway stations into San Marco and Springfield, that would be nice too.

[Ocklawaha]

I never said I wouldn't serve OIA, but the rail line comes out of DOWNTOWN or it fails to serve Florida residents en masse.

Not true.  Orlando isn't Jacksonville, DC or Philly.  DT Orlando was never the center of the Central Florida region.  It wasn't before Disney and it certainly isn't now.  Sunrail would provide the connection you seek, while also tying in with HSR.

Damn Lakelander, did you ever live in Orlando? You are right, I was in Orlando BEFORE DISNEY (RTC then NTC), in the Navy (lived on Central near DT), and again for 10 years in Heathrow... Orlando was known more for citrus and cows then it was anything else.

Sunrail as I pointed out, while useful for a weekday morning or evening commute, will completely fail during off peak or weekend and holidays when it WON'T OPERATE! Sure you could adjust it, but you'll never eliminate the waits for two changes, and the 20-30 minute trip to Sand Lake. Timing would have to be perfect for a seamless connection and poof the whole thing is up in smoke. No matter how you cut it, it will take MUCH longer to go from end to end on the Orlando-Tampa "Nowhere Express," (because the geniuses managed to route it away from all of the FLORIDIANS) from either the airport or Sunrail then it would to drive the 69 VW Microbus full of aging hippies.

As far as being centrally located, I lived in Orlando, Heathrow area for 10 years, and I'd rather ride a pogo stick to Apopka then a car to OIA. I can point to a few hundred others from DOWNTOWN north that feel the same way.

Heathrow is a small little community on the northern fringe of the metro area.  It doesn't make sense to bypass the center of the region to provide better transit to the northern fringe.  If you want to go to Tampa, it may be better for you to drive if you are a local resident staying in Heathrow.  However, if you want to travel to Miami, the train would be quicker.  All in all, it really depends on your specific location within the region, which applies to any mass transit system in any city.

Yeah, I'm WELL AWARE of where Heathrow is, simply look at the map, Orlando DOWNTOWN is nearly the geographic center of the metro area. The airport is anything but the "center of activity" in the metro. Ask anyone from Orlando when was the last movie, dry cleaning, child care, grocery, pharmacy, building permit, traffic fine, Magic Game, fireworks show, play, city park, or nightclub they visited AT THE AIRPORT! Didn't happen in Orlando, and doesn't happen here. Orlando may not be Jacksonville, but like Jacksonville's JIA, OIA IS A BUILDING - DOWNTOWN IS A PLACE.

That location is so bad, that most people I know would rather drive 2-4 hours to Tampa then take a 20 minute train ride if it also meant a 30 minute trip to OIA, a 30 minute search for a parking spot and to get to the terminal plus a $19 dollar daily parking rate (add it to the train fare, then add my wife and any kids) then a 30 mintue wait for a train. About 110 minutes on a 20 minute flying train Orlando-Tampa and I'd still be faster in my 69 VW Microbus.

THAT'S WHAT THE FUSS IS ABOUT OIA!

As mentioned before, it really depends on your location within the region (which applies anywhere).  Those in Polk and Brevard (both significantly larger than Seminole County in population) sing a completely different tune.  They would have had the opportunity to leave their cars in their community, take a quick train ride to the airport (not paying for any parking in process) or transfer to Sunrail to access other areas of the Orlando region. 

In closing, railing against OIA because its not as convenient to 400,000 residents on the fringe (btw, they would still have Sunrail tying them in) than it is to millions of Central Florida residents and tourist centers on not paying attention to the larger picture of accepting the established growth pattern of the region in general.

A little clip art to demonstrate the airports lower right field location and downtown's central locale.

The CSX alignment was far superior in overall convenience to the main core of residents in the metroplex, frankly I think they had it all backward, as the "Sunrail" or a "Light Rail System" running from downtown and I-Drive to the Airport, and a HSR line M/L following the CSX from Lake Monroe to Kissimmee. At Sanford there is a former CSX nee - Family Lines nee - Seaboard Coast Line nee - Atlantic Coast Line nee - SANFORD AND EVERGLADES RR, a former  branchline with an intact right-of-way right from the old Depot site a couple of blocks south of downtown eastward to the Orlando-Sanford Intl. Airport, beyond which there is nothing but Lunican's family's house between there and Mims/Titusville. 


OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

If I had access to the internet on my computer, I would post a regional aerial without the added green ovelay.  OIA serves as a hub to adjacent metro areas and it's definitey not all trees as your graphic attempts to illustrate. If I want to see a game or play, visit a city park or pull a building permit, I could go just about anywhere in Central Florida. When I lived in Lakeland, I got to enjoy things in three adjacent metros. The region is much larger and interconnected than what you are illustrating. Any true regional plan is going to have to consider and accept the area's landscape for what it is and best work within those confines.  Get the funds and infrastructure in and you'll have the opportunity to coordinate service. Throw the baby out with the bath water, without truly vetting options in detail, then get used to not seeing anything get done.

[Ocklawaha]

To expand on your #1 and #2 options, I'd like to see the downtown trolleys restored to at least what they were like in 2008, i.e.

1-Bring back the Laura Ocean trolley
2-Shorten the Bay St. and Beaver St. routes, and
3-Increase frequencies on all routes

If we could add trolley routes that would extend from skyway stations into San Marco and Springfield, that would be nice too.

Buses the duplicate the Skyway like the Bay Street Potato-Chip-Truck-Thinks-Its-A-Trolley thingamajigger should be annulled and rerouted into fresh territory. Then when we introduce REAL TROLLEY'S I vote that we donate the entire clinking, clanking, clattering collection of caliginous junk that JTA thinks are trolley's as artificial reefs... though they are so damn ugly they might damage fish breeding programs.

Ending routes at the Skyway at Jacksonville Terminal - Kings Avenue and Rosa Parks, rather then running them through the 20 minute downtown loop would go far in improving the situation, but the downtown east of Central Station is a no mans land for transit if we move in that direction. The whatchamacallit doodad thingy contraptions could launch from Central Station and Rosa Parks and serve the entire Eastside. As the mobility plan falls into place (please God) and on the heals of a San Marco Extension, we could phase the Stadium SKYWAY line into:

Phase 1 - Central Station - BOA - Newnan - Police Dept.
Phase 2 - Police Dept - Shipyards - Randolph and/or Everbank Field Station.

Meanwhile Streetcar Phase 2, moving up Newnan to Beaver to Randolph/Stadium Area would be a no brainer.

No bus is going to work trying to bridge the railroad into San Marco without making an end run through Brooklyn to 95, hence over the Fuller Warren and South on San Marco. Direct service from downtown will belong to the Skyway until we find a way over or under the railroad. In this light I would suggest looking at transit/busway ramps off the Acosta - over the FEC RY - and down in front of Aetna. A second busway overpass at Gary Street would allow a complete southside loop with the Skyway on the north half and busway on the south.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

I agree.  A chunk of change could be saved, routes streamlined and the skyway's ridership increased by simply eliminating the insane amount of route duplication and bus loops within downtown alone.  This is why I believe its shortsighted for anyone to consider immediately shutting down the skyway.

[Jdog]

Last two posts on the money.

[Ocklawaha]

If I had access to the internet on my computer, I would post a regional aerial without the added green ovelay.  OIA serves as a hub to adjacent metro areas and it's definitey not all trees as your graphic attempts to illustrate. If I want to see a game or play, visit a city park or pull a building permit, I could go just about anywhere in Central Florida. When I lived in Lakeland, I got to enjoy things in three adjacent metros. The region is much larger and interconnected than what you are illustrating. Any true regional plan is going to have to consider and accept the area's landscape for what it is and best work within those confines.  Get the funds and infrastructure in and you'll have the opportunity to coordinate service. Throw the baby out with the bath water, without truly vetting options in detail, then get used to not seeing anything get done.

Dozens of abandoned railroad line possibilities and we choose a freeway? These idiots pissed me off!

Check out that last map and ask yourself why not use what we already have?  If HIGH SPEED RAIL in Florida is going to be a gold mine (as they claim it will) then why when we cancel the government handout, does everybody pack up and go home? If there's really millions to be made, and the investment is no more then a private company would invest in a new turnpike, why are they not knocking down the door?

Lastly, the SEHSR project is NOT years or decades away and Florida WAS shovel ready... More like SEHSR is already past the intro phases, and the trains are already running, and getting faster and better by the day... NC just added another new train Raleigh-Charlotte, and Virginia-NC appear to have the old 'S' line between Raleigh and Richmond in the bag. Using railroad rights of way that we already have, and using conventional rail upgraded toward 150 mph. Realistically these boys and girls are light years ahead of Florida's project.  The Achilles heal of the whole FLHSR mess is the fact that we have this crazy notion that we can skip from A to Z without passing B-Y...

Hopefully the doctor gives me a decent bill of health and I'll see y'all at dinner?  

OCKLAWAHA

[Dashing Dan]

On behalf of the downtown (un)trolleys:

I work on Forsyth Street between Newnan and Market.  The skyway doesn't work for me, but a north south (un)trolley - running parallel with the skyway but a few blocks farther east - would take me from where I work up to Hemming Plaza and back.  The Laura Ocean (un)trolley would have done that job, but it was "suspended" in 2009 after running for only about a year.  So bring it back!

On their two existing downtown routes, the (un)trolleys run so infrequently that it almost always makes more sense to walk. A better set of downtown (un)trolley routes would complement the skyway, and at the same time they would allow the other JTA buses to run back and forth to downtown, instead of having to wind around in circles and corkscrews.  When those routes were set up in 2008, their routes were shorter and that allowed the (un)trolleys on those routes to run more frequently. 

For reasons that have been stated by others, I strongly favor an extension of the skyway, from the terminal at Kings Ave, beneath I-95 and out to San Marco. 

I'd also favor turning the Bay Street (un)trolley route back at the Central skyway station instead of running beneath the skyway to the convention center station.

[thelakelander]

Ock, I know you're old school but the Bee Line (or whatever they are calling it these days) is a superior path between Orlando and Brevard County than the abandoned circuitous railroad lines shown on your map.  In addition, why the continued focus on just Orlando and no thought on the region on a larger scale?  I grew up in Winter Haven, which isn't even shown on your map of pine trees, yet that county, which is a separate metro area, has nearly 600,000 people.  A drive from my parent's house to Disney takes 20 minutes and OIA about 40-45.  You have the same issue with Brevard and the Port Canaveral area.  Throw in the millions of tourist between Disney and the airport and there is a strong argument for tapping into that market on phase 1.  When I get back in town, I'll pull a graphic illustrating what I'm getting at.

When you look at the greater picture, a HSR station at OIA doesn't automatically equate to failure, imo.  Especially pulling the plug on $2.4 billion without giving the rail professionals a chance at putting together their own plans and modifications as a part of their RFP submittals.  Anyway, my main concern is more about the Governor's actions screwing the pooch on the $2.4 billion in a manner that could hurt our opportunities at economic development, job creation and securing state and federal dollars for local rail projects. 

[thelakelander]

Here is a decent graphic from the Orlando Sentinel that shows the path of Florida's HSR phase 1 and Sunrail, along with their estimated completion dates (before the events of 2011).

[yapp1850]

did you guys think rick scott will approve sunrail or will he kill it like the high speed rail