LaHood in talks with Charlotte over FL HSR funds

[thelakelander]

All I'm saying is that:

1; If some or all of the $2.4 billion goes to support a rail project in another SE state, Jacksonville could end up better off than if that money had been spent on something that would have run down the middle of I-4; and

2; It's better to have a (good) plan than to throw money at something just because it can be done cheaply or quickly.

Cool.  However, I disagree.  The Florida plan was valid enough to allow the RFP to be issued before killing it.  Also, the negative impact will be felt on Jacksonville, sooner rather than later.  That negative impact will fall on our commuter rail plans or any mass transit dreams that are currently set up to be funded partially with state and federal dollars (ex. BRT, Commuter Rail, Streetcar, FEC/Amtrak).  Scott isn't going to fund any of these projects while he's in office, so we're potentially looking at a delay of at least four to five years on most of them.  Assuming the GOP replaces Obama after his first term is up and that delay could extend out past a decade.  Btw, if this happens, the SEHSR plan isn't going to make it to Charlotte either.

[thelakelander]

Btw, what's the big fuss about OIA?  Like it or not, a chunk of people in that region are coming in and out of OIA.  Quite frankly, a transit planner would be a fool to not try and tap into that potential ridership market in some form or fashion (to be honest, its even more important to the region that DT Orlando is).  We can argue all day over whether the selected route should have been I-4 or the CSX line but its a no brainer that any logical plan would have to take advantage of the captive audience Disney, the airport and the I-Drive bring to Central Florida.  Last, OIA is definately more accessible to the region than Apoka is.  The Bee Line, 436 and the Greenway gives that airport great access to not only metro Orlando, but also Polk (pop. 600,000) and Brevard/Port Canaveral area (pop.540,000).  That's an extra 1.14 million people being overlooked or totally ignored in this discussion.

[Dashing Dan]

All I'm saying is that:

1; If some or all of the $2.4 billion goes to support a rail project in another SE state, Jacksonville could end up better off than if that money had been spent on something that would have run down the middle of I-4; and

2; It's better to have a (good) plan than to throw money at something just because it can be done cheaply or quickly.

Cool.  However, I disagree.  The Florida plan was valid enough to allow the RFP to be issued before killing it.  Also, the negative impact will be felt on Jacksonville, sooner rather than later.  That negative impact will fall on our commuter rail plans or any mass transit dreams that are currently set up to be funded partially with state and federal dollars (ex. BRT, Commuter Rail, Streetcar, FEC/Amtrak).  Scott isn't going to fund any of these projects while he's in office, so we're potentially looking at a delay of at least four to five years on most of them.  Assuming the GOP replaces Obama after his first term is up and that delay could extend out past a decade.  Btw, if this happens, the SEHSR plan isn't going to make it to Charlotte either.

Obama was just grabbing low hanging fruit.  He wasn't following a plan.  A plan would have connected the dots.

[Ocklawaha]

Btw, what's the big fuss about OIA?  Like it or not, a chunk of people in that region are coming in and out of OIA.  Quite frankly, a transit planner would be a fool to not try and tap into that potential ridership market in some form or fashion (to be honest, its even more important to the region that DT Orlando is).  We can argue all day over whether the selected route should have been I-4 or the CSX line but its a no brainer that any logical plan would have to take advantage of the captive audience Disney, the airport and the I-Drive bring to Central Florida.  Last, OIA is definately more accessible to the region than Apoka is.  The Bee Line, 436 and the Greenway gives that airport great access to not only metro Orlando, but also Polk (pop. 600,000) and Brevard/Port Canaveral area (pop.540,000).  That's an extra 1.14 million people being overlooked or totally ignored in this discussion.

I never said I wouldn't serve OIA, but the rail line comes out of DOWNTOWN or it fails to serve Florida residents en masse.

As far as being centrally located, I lived in Orlando, Heathrow area for 10 years, and I'd rather ride a pogo stick to Apopka then a car to OIA. I can point to a few hundred others from DOWNTOWN north that feel the same way. That location is so bad, that most people I know would rather drive 2-4 hours to Tampa then take a 20 minute train ride if it also meant a 30 minute trip to OIA, a 30 minute search for a parking spot and to get to the terminal plus a $19 dollar daily parking rate (add it to the train fare, then add my wife and any kids) then a 30 mintue wait for a train. About 110 minutes on a 20 minute flying train Orlando-Tampa and I'd still be faster in my 69 VW Microbus.

THAT'S WHAT THE FUSS IS ABOUT OIA!

Y'all hold em in the frog, high greens till next time... meanwhile a coded message for my HSR friends! (LUNICAN YOUR UP)

OCKLAWAHA 

[tufsu1]

well maybe you should take a look at how the Orlando region is developed nopw...there's a whole bunch of growth in the southeast and east that is very convenient to OIA

[thelakelander]

All I'm saying is that:

1; If some or all of the $2.4 billion goes to support a rail project in another SE state, Jacksonville could end up better off than if that money had been spent on something that would have run down the middle of I-4; and

2; It's better to have a (good) plan than to throw money at something just because it can be done cheaply or quickly.

Cool.  However, I disagree.  The Florida plan was valid enough to allow the RFP to be issued before killing it.  Also, the negative impact will be felt on Jacksonville, sooner rather than later.  That negative impact will fall on our commuter rail plans or any mass transit dreams that are currently set up to be funded partially with state and federal dollars (ex. BRT, Commuter Rail, Streetcar, FEC/Amtrak).  Scott isn't going to fund any of these projects while he's in office, so we're potentially looking at a delay of at least four to five years on most of them.  Assuming the GOP replaces Obama after his first term is up and that delay could extend out past a decade.  Btw, if this happens, the SEHSR plan isn't going to make it to Charlotte either.

Obama was just grabbing low hanging fruit.  He wasn't following a plan.  A plan would have connected the dots.

He was trying to create jobs in places that needed them by building projects that stimulate sustainable development that were already shovel ready.  It was really an opportunity to kill two birds with one massive stone.  This goal will still be accomplished with the $2.4 billion, it just won't happen in Florida.

[thelakelander]

I never said I wouldn't serve OIA, but the rail line comes out of DOWNTOWN or it fails to serve Florida residents en masse.

Not true.  Orlando isn't Jacksonville, DC or Philly.  DT Orlando was never the center of the Central Florida region.  It wasn't before Disney and it certainly isn't now.  Sunrail would provide the connection you seek, while also tying in with HSR.

As far as being centrally located, I lived in Orlando, Heathrow area for 10 years, and I'd rather ride a pogo stick to Apopka then a car to OIA. I can point to a few hundred others from DOWNTOWN north that feel the same way.

Heathrow is a small little community on the northern fringe of the metro area.  It doesn't make sense to bypass the center of the region to provide better transit to the northern fringe.  If you want to go to Tampa, it may be better for you to drive if you are a local resident staying in Heathrow.  However, if you want to travel to Miami, the train would be quicker.  All in all, it really depends on your specific location within the region, which applies to any mass transit system in any city.

That location is so bad, that most people I know would rather drive 2-4 hours to Tampa then take a 20 minute train ride if it also meant a 30 minute trip to OIA, a 30 minute search for a parking spot and to get to the terminal plus a $19 dollar daily parking rate (add it to the train fare, then add my wife and any kids) then a 30 mintue wait for a train. About 110 minutes on a 20 minute flying train Orlando-Tampa and I'd still be faster in my 69 VW Microbus.

THAT'S WHAT THE FUSS IS ABOUT OIA!

As mentioned before, it really depends on your location within the region (which applies anywhere).  Those in Polk and Brevard (both significantly larger than Seminole County in population) sing a completely different tune.  They would have had the opportunity to leave their cars in their community, take a quick train ride to the airport (not paying for any parking in process) or transfer to Sunrail to access other areas of the Orlando region. 

In closing, railing against OIA because its not as convenient to 400,000 residents on the fringe (btw, they would still have Sunrail tying them in) than it is to millions of Central Florida residents and tourist centers on not paying attention to the larger picture of accepting the established growth pattern of the region in general.

[Dashing Dan]

Obama was just grabbing low hanging fruit.  He wasn't following a plan.  A plan would have connected the dots.

He was trying to create jobs in places that needed them by building projects that stimulate sustainable development that were already shovel ready.  It was really an opportunity to kill two birds with one massive stone.  This goal will still be accomplished with the $2.4 billion, it just won't happen in Florida.

Obama's emphasis on "shovel ready" projects reflects the same disregard for planning that made such a mess out of the Better Jacksonville "Plan".  My hope is that the $2.4 billion will be diverted to high speed rail projects in the southeast that will be the outcome of better planning, and therefore that Jacksonville will now be better off than we would have been if Scott hadn't intervened.

It pains me to say all of this, because I fully realize that Scott is no friend of planning.

[thelakelander]

The majority of it won't.  The SEHSR plan is so preliminary that diverting the lion's share of those funds to such a project would defeat the central purpose of the stimulus dollars.  My guess is that they give them some millions for additional studies and the bulk will be shifted to regions that have plans ready for construction.

[Dashing Dan]

The majority of it won't.  The SEHSR plan is so preliminary that diverting the lion's share of those funds to such a project would defeat the central purpose of the stimulus dollars.  My guess is that they give them some millions for additional studies and the bulk will be shifted to regions that have plans ready for construction.

Better to have a good plan than a lousy project.

[thelakelander]

Again, I think its very premature to say the Florida rollout would have been lousy.  The private sector was never given the opportunity to put together proposals for their specific technology and operational plans.  In addition, its also premature to say the SEHSR plan will be a good product.  They haven't even done initial studies for most of it.

[Dashing Dan]

I'm not saying that any specific project is lousy.  I'm just saying that money is often wasted on projects that are not well planned.

[thelakelander]

gotcha!

[Dashing Dan]

So we agree?

[JeffreyS]

I agree that we were too close to the RFP to kill this for any reason other than pandering.