High Speed Rail is Dead, Time for STREETCAR JACKSONVILLE

[thelakelander]

How many years and how much cash are we talking? Even building a volunteer led system could take years, when dealing with public ROW, design, public works, FDOT, JEA, JTA, permitting and COJ regulations. What's the time line for your plan? You can leave out the years it will take to convince the city and JTA to abandon what's been planned to date. To be honest, what you describe seems to be at least a decade away from reality (assuming everything went right, start to finish).

[thelakelander]

FYI, the mobility fee projects are intended to alleviate traffic choke points, not create a mass transit system. If the improvement is not already apart of the mobility plan project list, mobility plan money can't be spent on it. So assuming you want to modify the plan's project priorities, you're going to have to wait at least 5-10 years on that alone or go after another funding method.

[A-Finnius]

I am with Ock on this.  The HSR project was a DOG that would have given rail in general a black eye. A resident of Tampa is not going to drive to the rail station and pay to ride HSR to Orlando when it is less than two hours, by car, door to door from any point between the two cities. 

Also, I don't know about Orlando but Tampa is not the most rail friendly city in the country anyway.  It's my understanding that Hillsborough County voted against a one-cent local sales tax that would have funded several mass transit projects including light rail.  I almost believe that residents of Tampa would not have ridden an establish HSR out of spite.

Unfortunately, it seems that the majority of people in Florida, not just Jacksonville, DON'T WANT RAIL. Be it HSR, light rail, street car or trolley. 

On a note besides Floridian's disdain of rail...

I know the federal grant was supposed to fund HSR but wouldn't it have been better spent to fund intra-city, urban mass transit projects like the streetcars that Ock suggests in this thread?  Wouldn't 2.4 billion been able to establish or improve rail systems in all four major cities in Florida? 

If the feds are going to grant Florida money to improve transportation infrastructure then maybe they should let Floridians decide which type of infrastructure that grant should go towards.

[thelakelander]

We really need to get away from this idea that the $2.4 billion should be used for other things. Reality is that this is simply not going to happen. The feds are trying to create a national wide HSR network. The $2.4 billion is a part of the funds that have been set aside for this. Florida had a shovel ready project that made it eligible to receive HSR money from that particular federal pot. If we don't have a project, that money will go to a state that does.

[A-Finnius]

We really need to get away from this idea that the $2.4 billion should be used for other things. Reality is that this is simply not going to happen. The feds are trying to create a national wide HSR network.

Which is an awesome idea but Floridians aren't ready for it so it probably wont start here.  The majority of residents in Florida are uninformed to the benefits of rail if not completely ignorant to it.

A few weeks ago there was an incident on a light rail that made national news.  Correct me if am wrong but I believe it was a shooting in San Francisco?  The incident became a topic of discussion among my team at work and the main question that circled the discussion was "What is light rail?".

No one on my team of eleven people even knew what light rail was except for one person who said "I think they have one of those in D.C.".  It was sad.

[thelakelander]

We basically have two options with the $2.4 billion:

1. Use it to establish an intercity rail line between Tampa and Orlando, which is phase 1 of a statewide system.

2. Use it to establish intercity rail lines in other states with similar shovel ready projects.

All talk of using it to invest in other modes of transit, ports, sending it back to the treasury or whatever is a waste of time.  All of these are things we should be working on irregardless of if HSR happens or not.  Btw, judging from the political fallout, there are millions of Floridians who believe Rick Scott is crazy for not allowing this thing to be bid on by the private sector before pulling the plug.

[A-Finnius]

Btw, judging from the political fallout, there are millions of Floridians who believe Rick Scott is crazy for not allowing this thing to be bid on by the private sector before pulling the plug.

Oh yeah, millions of Floridians like you, me and the rest of the MetroJacksonville faithful .  But there are also millions of Floridians who either don't care or who are sold by Scott's propaganda that tax payer's are going to end up having to foot the bill for this project.

You are right though.  Scott should have let the private sector bid on this.  It may have been a DOG as it was currently projected but the private sector may have found a way make it work.  Especially if it was their profits that were on the line and not the taxpayer's money.  Keeping taxpayer's from being fiscally responsible for these types of projects is a good step forward in selling Floridians on rail.     

[thelakelander]

You would be surprised.  The majority of people I'm in contact with in Central Florida (regardless of party affiliation) thinks he's crazy to pass without it at least going to bid to determine its true feasibility first.  You're never going to get a deal on any type of passenger rail system where all you have to provide is the ROW (which happens to already be in place).  That, combined with the fed's $2.4 billion and a chance to lead the US HSR market are the things that make it feasible for the private sector to participate.  As mentioned, in the past, I'm not crazy about the plan that has been developed so far either.  However, I see no problem with having the private sector bid on it.  Like you, I believe any party willing to risk their name and livelyhood on it would find ways to modify it into a workable product.  If they can't, they'd just pass and it wouldn't get built anyway.

[dougskiles]

As for streetcar and Skyway, I would set several dates for public meetings but I'd do them in a "rally in the park" format... add music and a few baby kissing politicians. Meetings with the local branch of groups such as National Railway Historical Society, Railway and Locomotive Historical Society, Monorail Society etc. and organize a JACKSONVILLE TRACTION and JACKSONVILLE MONORAIL groups which will help with planning, volunteer restoration, cleaning, mechanics, operations, etc. As you know Lake, this was started in Troy, WI and Baltimore, and IS DONE in Dallas and several other places (Tucson was doing it but I'm not sure today with the new system going in).  If we line up the ducks now, by the time the mobility plan passes review, we could experience immediate changes.

Each group would solicit for donations of labor, talent, materials, from throughout our community. While we would certainly have a vision on a map, we wouldn't be trying to build it all at once, start small and grow into it. As the mobility plan (or other resources) come into play, some of these early methods would shift to standard practices, but I would NOT exclude our volunteer groups. Standard practice could mean modern light rail vehicles or streetcars, monorails, track, signal, wire, upgrades.

Ock, I have been talking to people in Springfield about organizing an effort to connect San Marco with Springfield by transit.  There are many people living in Springfield sending kids to schools in San Marco (Landon) and vice versa (Darnel Cookman).  There are also a large number of people living in San Marco who work at Shands.  And then even more who used to live in one neighborhood and now the other or work in one and live in the other.  What I'm trying to say is that there are many connections between the two neighborhoods that can be used for mutual benefit.  Hopefully soon we can speak in a unified voice that will gain some positive attention.  Your idea of holding public events is great and one that I am willing to support and participate in.

[thelakelander]

I thought Lori Boyer's suggestion of linking neighborhood shuttles with the skyway's end points was a great short term (0-5 years) idea for gaining better use out of the skyway, while also tying our urban core districts together.  Doing such will allow for the necessary time (+5 to 20 years) needed to accomplish and complete proposed projects in the LRTP, Mobility Plan and some of Ock's ideas.

[dougskiles]

Absolutely we should have neighborhood shuttles.  But until the skyway comes across the RR tracks, people won't have much of an incentive in San Marco because the shuttle will get stopped by the train as often as the cars do.  That is what killed it last time they tried the 'trolley' in San Marco.  We need to find a way to provide enough incentives for private developers to create true TODs at Kings Avenue, Lasalle Street and Atlantic Blvd that would pay for the extension of the skyway.  I am beginning to believe that this initiative will not come from any government agency and will have to be citizen led.

[JeffreyS]

We basically have two options with the $2.4 billion:

1. Use it to establish an intercity rail line between Tampa and Orlando, which is phase 1 of a statewide system.

2. Use it to establish intercity rail lines in other states with similar shovel ready projects.

All talk of using it to invest in other modes of transit, ports, sending it back to the treasury or whatever is a waste of time.  All of these are things we should be working on irregardless of if HSR happens or not.  Btw, judging from the political fallout, there are millions of Floridians who believe Rick Scott is crazy for not allowing this thing to be bid on by the private sector before pulling the plug.

And the Florida taxpayer will pay the same amount either way.

[thelakelander]

Absolutely we should have neighborhood shuttles.  But until the skyway comes across the RR tracks, people won't have much of an incentive in San Marco because the shuttle will get stopped by the train as often as the cars do.  That is what killed it last time they tried the 'trolley' in San Marco.  We need to find a way to provide enough incentives for private developers to create true TODs at Kings Avenue, Lasalle Street and Atlantic Blvd that would pay for the extension of the skyway.  I am beginning to believe that this initiative will not come from any government agency and will have to be citizen led.

I agree, but it will require time (years) to make an extension a reality. In addition to selling the idea of extending the skyway (this is a difficult sell by itself), you've got to acquire land from the private sector (ex. FEC), and deal with the Overland Bridge project. That project alone could easily push a completion date to the later half of this decade.

[Ocklawaha]

How many years and how much cash are we talking? Even building a volunteer led system could take years, when dealing with public ROW, design, public works, FDOT, JEA, JTA, permitting and COJ regulations. What's the time line for your plan? You can leave out the years it will take to convince the city and JTA to abandon what's been planned to date. To be honest, what you describe seems to be at least a decade away from reality (assuming everything went right, start to finish).

All it takes is a LEADER! Mayor, Civic Council, DDA, Chamber... Someone to call and preside over a meeting where we can lay it all out.

I mean, really Lake, this isn't like I just walked in from the tobacco barn and decided to build me one of them thar trolley lines in Jacksonville. Hell it's like Pablo always said, sure there's push involved, but there could never be any deal without some pull too. This project, like Commuter Rail, Beltways, or pogo sticks has got to be wanted before it gets its act together. Since I've been involved with the streetcar project from it's creation for 30 years, my observation is it has NEVER had such a demand, desire, acceptance like it does today.

Public ROW, public works, permitting and COJ regulations, should all be IN HOUSE for a local design-finance-build. As streetcar can be economical enough to be 100% local, there should be no need to involve FDOT beyond any state design regulations.

As for JTA, JEA, JAA, and JPA, all of which could play roles in streetcars, commuter trains, Skyway's or BRT, they are primarily JACKSONVILLE authorities and the official "State Agency," moniker could be played like a drum.

"You can leave out the years it will take to convince the city and JTA to abandon what's been planned to date?"  Is this the same Lakelander that's been posting here for 5+ years or have you been smoking some of TUFSU or FAYE'S blend?  Lake, JTA is ALREADY ON BOARD FOR A STREETCAR, and similarities? Hell you and I drew 99% of their plan! It's already been stated that Mike Blaylock would love for a group like McKinney Avenue Streetcar to step up as the coordinator-designer-builder-operator... And Mike Blaylock has a keen interest in doing a major league railroad and transportation museum around JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL. Since every candidate for mayor and at least half the City Council races are in favor of streetcar, I'd say we have a very good chance of pulling this off... Imagine JACKSONVILLE LEADING the nation in something?

• Jacksonville Commuter Rail - MAKING HISTORY EVERY DAY - Ride the pioneer streamliner "Mark Twain Zephyr" to work, return home on the "Orange Blossom Special," "Sunniland," or "Palmland..." with original equipment!
  Jacksonville Traction Company - Lowest price per mile fixed rail project in the world and making a profit on every run...  Without going into too much detail here, please recall the "wasted heat" plan I explained to MJ... PURE PROFIT.

As you know Lake, there are several creative ways that I explained would cover our O & M and even turn a profit and have money to reinvest. (Yes Mike, Brad and James - give me a call). We have the opportunity to turn our municipally owned railroad right-of-ways, into raging profit centers that finance transit and transit improvements.

As for time? Depends on the new government, but if our guesses are right, we'll have the ability to hit the ground running...and soon. Once the streetcar has an official body behind it, with the blessing of COJ, JTA, NRHS, R&LHS etc. I would expect to see the first run within 5 years, maybe before the end of the new mayors first term.

Why am I so optimistic? Hopefully the threat of an impending national railroad disaster is over, which means the FTA, DOT, FRA and others might actually have sufficiently recovered from their zombie powered delusions to focus on some projects that will serve a real purpose and without involving corporate rats in Fantasyland.

Any other old Vietnam era vets out there? Do you remember the training question that went something like, "What do you do if your cut off from your unit, and find yourself surrounded by 300 enemy soldiers?" Remember that answer? The one you learned - and believed - and lived - under penalty of falling down a flight of stairs in the middle of the night? There is only one correct answer, and maybe that explains my beliefs...

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

I hate to ran on your parade but I'm just being realistic.  Nothing happens overnight.  You should know, you've been advocating for streetcars in Jax for +30 years now and we're still not there yet.  While we've made considerable progress in the last five years in educating our community on the benefits of mass transit, its still been five years.  It will most likely be another five before any real dirt turns for a streetcar line in Jax.  Even with a leader, it still takes a little time to raise capital, deal with ROW/environment/community issues, design, permit and construct.