High Speed Rail is Dead, Time for STREETCAR JACKSONVILLE

[Dashing Dan]

This would be my advice at this point.

1. Make sure a visionary mayor is elected next month. Get the wrong person in and the MP could be up in smoke as well.

2. Focus on better utilizing the Skyway to increase ridership and cut down O&M costs before 2017.

3. Integrate DT/urban core land use development plans with skyway corridor, BRT, future commuter rail and streetcar alignments.

4. In the short term, focus on improving mass transit connectivity in the urban core.  We're stretching ourselves to thin trying to force mass transit all over a suburban city. Instead, we'll get more bang for our buck by focusing on areas that can actually support it and expanding from there.

5. Continue to educate others on the importance of mass transit and work to find creative solutions to funding problems.

exactly.

I agree - Lakelander has nailed it for us.

[cline]

My bad, its not the stretch between Emerson & University.  Its the stretch between University and JTB.  Thus, it would address the intersection you just mentioned.

^ That is probably more needed, but again I think a signaling change at the intersection of JTB and Philips, or the proposed redo of that entire stretch of road from Belfort to Philips, would be a more effective remedy.  Philips highway isn't fantastic to drive on, but I think the capacity of the road is fine.  Dealing with the many intersections you have are the bigger problem, IMO.  

A rail line paralleling Philips would do much more for that area.  Imagine how many people would be sitting at the intersection of Philips and JTB, see a train whiz by them, and then start to use that as their daily commute option.

JTA does have a plan to completely redo the intersection of JTB/I95/Philips however the ultimate fix is like $140MM so the likelihood of that happending anytime soon is not all that great.  

You are corrrect though, Philips really doesn't have any capacity issues right now except at a few intersections during the peak hour.  Philips and Shad road could probably use dual WB left turn lanes and that would help.  The intersection at University is probably beyond hope during the peak hour outside of building an overpass.

[thelakelander]

My bad, its not the stretch between Emerson & University.  Its the stretch between University and JTB.  Thus, it would address the intersection you just mentioned.

^ That is probably more needed, but again I think a signaling change at the intersection of JTB and Philips, or the proposed redo of that entire stretch of road from Belfort to Philips, would be a more effective remedy.  Philips highway isn't fantastic to drive on, but I think the capacity of the road is fine.  Dealing with the many intersections you have are the bigger problem, IMO.  

A rail line paralleling Philips would do much more for that area.  Imagine how many people would be sitting at the intersection of Philips and JTB, see a train whiz by them, and then start to use that as their daily commute option.

You can't see the tracks from Philips.  Nevertheless, when speaking about Philips and the future of transit oriented development along that corridor, significant road improvements will have to be made.  Right now, its a rural divided road with poor lighting, no sidewalks, no curb & gutter and no bike facilities.  All of these things, which are essential for walkability and urban development, would be included in road projects being funded by the mobility plan.  Thus, in this case, a widening in this particular area complements future commuter rail plans (even though those commuter rail plans have now been made more complicated to pull off with Rick Scott in Tallahassee).

[thelakelander]

Btw, the mobility plan projects address transportation capacity issues that are estimated to happen on roadway segment links by 2030.  It isn't intended to fund today's capacity issues.

[cline]

Does anyone know if the Jackson Square project is completely dead or is there a possiblity it may be resurrected?

[thelakelander]

I believe its just indefinitely delayed until the economic improves.  Nevertheless, its something I wouldn't count on becoming reality before 2015.  With no reliable transit in place, a dead housing market and a poor economy, it will be a while.

[CG7]

Jacksonville Transportation Authority Board Chairman Michael Cavendish and Executive Director Michael Blaylock will be riding the transit system Friday in  order to talk to riders about their experiences.

Cavendish, who became the chairman of JTA's board in January, stated when elected  he wanted to hear what riders had to say.

This will be one of several trips he has planned during his tenure.

Cavendish and Blaylock will spend two hours riding the bus and trolley system before reviewing the Skyway.

I picked this up from the TU. Just thought it might be a good way to get face time with the powers that be.

[peestandingup]

whatever.  Because neither the national press or the feds missed the fact that we have an asshole for a governor?

Sometimes the defeatism is just breathtaking TUFSU.  Youve patiently explained for three years how nothing is possible and things are working out just fine.

hey...I'm not the one supporting a candidate for Mayor that sounds more and more like the Governor every day (check out his new TV ad)...and he even mentions that he is friends with the Governor during stump speaches.

What on earth does this have to do with the notion that our relationship as a state or a city is irreparably damaged by our asshole governor, or that no one will be able to get federal funding for a project.

Ocklawaha is kidding himself if he thinks we can just fund it municipally, or even privately on a local level, but I would posit that the federal government can read the same newspapers that we can, and can see the same statewide outrage that we can, and can come to the same conclusions as everyone else.  This isnt a parent child relationship that Florida has with them after all.

This sorta goes back to what I brought up in another thread & what many others have been saying. Now that the HSR project is dead, we need to focus efforts locally (all over the state) to get our transit systems up to snuff. That's why we need a good Mayor here with vision who can work with the Administration for grants to help with cost (Scott can just suck it if he doesn't like it). But, it could go the other way too. If we get a Mayor in here that's been "Teabagged", then you can pretty much kiss it goodbye for a while.

But I'd much rather have seen that HSR money be split up & gone towards local transit, with the intention of connecting them up with HSR later. I think that's a healthier way of doing it.

[Fallen Buckeye]

We need a bigger voice for it.  Metro Jacksonville is great and reaches many people.  But I'm not sure it is enough provide a critical mass of supporters.  Ultimately we are going to need to start advertising on billboards and television.

I wonder if there is any way MetroJacksonville could partner up with a local TV news agency to provide segments from time to time about stories related to urban development on the local news. I know people have mentioned a full on MetroJax tv show, but maybe this would help get a foot in the door for new ideas minus the production costs of an entire new television show.

[Ocklawaha]

What on earth does this have to do with the notion that our relationship as a state or a city is irreparably damaged by our asshole governor, or that no one will be able to get federal funding for a project.

Ocklawaha is kidding himself if he thinks we can just fund it municipally, or even privately on a local level, but I would posit that the federal government can read the same newspapers that we can, and can see the same statewide outrage that we can, and can come to the same conclusions as everyone else.  This isn't a parent child relationship that Florida has with them after all.

NOPE, not kidding myself...or you...or anybody else. There are only about 10,000 things we can do to bump up our intra-city transportation.

Reconfigure bus routes, adding frequencies where needed and getting the system acting like BRT. This can be done with careful surgical cutting in area's where it's not needed or redundant.

Streetcar, I'M TALKING HERITAGE STREETCAR, vintage, authentic, period streetcars and a system economical enough that many places have them built by volunteer railroad nuts, and donations. Can be done, has been done, been there done that.

Keep in mind that with Streetcar and/or Interurban's or Light Rail in general, modern cars can and do operate on the same track as the vintage cars...

Step 1, get basic starter line up and running
Step 2, collect some very cool period vehicles
Step 3, blend the operation with JTA-BUS-SKYWAY
Step 4, down the road expansion can include modern LRV'S and modern fixtures...

EXPANSION TO GATEWAY MALL from downtown, using the Beaver Street Alignment over Hogans Creek and turning north between Springfield and Eastside, 100% (or nearly so) of the grade is in place and city owned.

Commuter Rail can be done using a similar model, used but excellent equipment, a handful of RDC cars, simple platform/bus shelter stations, and expand from there.
In case of the line North, Uncle Sam can be pulled in as well as "UNCLE SCOTT," under the label of PORT ACCESS and EXPANSION. The "s" line is key to both Port and Commuter Rail, why not use what we have to get those matching dollars?

Belt Line Railroad around the Northside, 100% within the 300+ foot right-of-way of the JEA Electric Transmission Lines. JPA could get the grants for this project completely from the freight and intermodal aspect. Add a spur to the Airport Free Trade Zone, and we can pull in JAA. Not to mention about 1,000 sources of other creative grants ranging from emission abatement to wetlands protection. Rail would be used (an industry standard called relay) ...and doesn't Gate make CONCRETE?

Certainly I have no visions of the citizens and city financing the SANTA FE or ROCK ISLAND. Think I've been in the business long enough to know something about how to do this for a song...

...Which according to TUFSU and the doomsday crew, we'll need as we beg for pennies on streetcorners to fund our police and fire.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

Ock, its not so much "doomsday" as it is being able to acknowledge and accept the reality that politics at a state and federal level (even in other communities) have a direct impact on our own local needs.  Funding and funding relationships with other parties are very important concerns that must be taken care of regardless what type of streetcar, BRT or whatever system is being proposed.  The sooner we can accept this, the sooner we can plan and push forward in a logical achievable manner.

Thus, all the "doomsday crew" is pointing out is that it will be a more time consuming and difficult challenge to push massive mass transit projects forward if we have to overcome a bad state/federal working relationship.  Personally, I rather make sure good working relationships remain at the local, state and federal level.  If this can happen, things can move forward in five years instead of us having to wait another 20 or 30.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

Establishing a rail system, and a city wide trolley network is a completely different thing from 'bumping our intra city transportation'.

Leave that kind of conflation to TUFSU, please.

I can't personally speak about rail and trolley, but the intra-city issue with JEA can begin to be fixed with a, as Ock put it, "...a careful surgical cutting" of existing routes to eliminate redundancy.  I have offered several ideas on this based upon ACTUAL FIELD KNOWLEDGE and not sitting behind a keyboard proclaiming incorrect truths.  I know the busses that I use daily.  I know that they overlap services in a ridiculous manner.  I have e-mailed JTA about my concerns, and from my limited vantage point, options that could correct them.   Does anyone here realize how many busses circulate through downtown before starting their trip?  I don't either, but it's most of them - look at the JTA signs on Bay, Newnan & Hubbard Sts - there are at least 10-15 busses that pass those stops every loop.  How many times do busses stop nearby a skyway station on the way to Rosa Park? I don't know, but most of them that come in from the southwest.  Look at the JTA signs that are across / right down the street from a skyway station.

My biggest peeve is that of those who complain and bitch about 'the system,' but refuse to actually try and use it.  We're not talking about journeys to the outer edges of civilization, just the typical 'intra-city' access that JTA needs to focus on.

[Ocklawaha]

Really no different then it has ever been, yeah we have a blank in Tallahassee, but the FTA is another thing altogether. Remember HSR was very much on the front burner, and the cheerleaders were all in place when Jacksonville got NOTHING from the Tiger Grants, and the Florida East Coast train, arguably the best long distance passenger route in the County, was turned down flat. Obama was in TOTAL control when that happened and I don't see a dimes difference in then and now except that the TEA PARTY faction has gained strength and is totally hostile to public transit.

Just for the sake of argument, what would be the state of things like Streetcar, Commuter Rail or the JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL project had we approved the HSR plan? Wouldn't have changed a thing, we wouldn't have gotten the tiger grants locally, and the FEC trains would still be unfunded. What would be a certain disaster is what would have happened had we allowed the HSR to go to bid, built and failed which would have brought down not just our railroad but possibly some huge multi-national corporation like TALGO, or BOMBARDIER. They would be faced with a delima of bad choices, cut their losses and run (dumping it on the taxpayers), bankruptcy protection (with the same net effect), find a loophole and back away as fast as possible - likely to NEVER do business in our country again, or bite the bullet, cut things to the bone and allow the railroad to hobble along hemorrhaging negative cash flow, while nailing the coffin of HSR in our country. 

Maybe I see things this way as a railroader, because since 1971, to get ANYTHING RAIL out of the Federal Government and most states has been like a having a Proctologist pull your teeth. Amtrak has been "dying" for 40 years, as the "progressive conservatives" labeled railroads as "a 19th Century Technology." Randal O'Toole, Heritage Foundation, The Pew Charitable Trust, Reason Foundation, etc... have been launching an insane attack on rail long before Scott became governor, or turned down the Florida project funding.

No I disagree, NOTHING HAS CHANGED, at least since May 1, 1971 not a damn thing has changed for those of us who are veterans of the railroad wars. 

Here is a sampling of what I mean:

High-Speed Rail - A Big-Ticket Item That Drives Deficits

June 11, 2009 - By Diana Furchtgott-Roth

Proponents of high-speed rail have exaggerated its benefits. Transportation jobs can be created through expansion of highways, using private funding from tolls rather than taxpayer dollars. And additional high-speed rail is unlikely to ease traffic congestion, because traffic congestion occurs within cities, rather than outside them. Evidence from Japan and Europe indicates that expansion of rail does not stop increases in road transportation and therefore would not reduce dependence on foreign oil. In fact, the opposite has occurred. Since high speed rail was built, rail has lost market share to cars. 
SOURCE:  Manhattan Institute for Policy Research  - 2009
http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/miarticle.htm?id=4798

AIR TERROR SAVES AMTRAK?

America’s scarcely used passenger rail service (Amtrak had a total of 22.5 million passengers in 2000â€"less traffic than the Charlotte airport had that year) has an uncanny knack for survival. From time to time the profligate son gets spanked by fiscal conservatives, but he can ultimately count on support from a network of mayors, governors, and Congressmen who are determined to see the Amtrak gravy train keep rolling through their districts. While train service brings relatively little economic benefit to the areas it serves, politicians have convinced themselves that the political benefits are immense, according to transportation specialist Ron Utt of the Heritage Foundation. “There are a lot of mayors who think they’d be important if they had high-speed rail service,” he says.
SOURCE: American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research
http://www.aei.org/docLib/20030117_amtrak.pdf

Socialism Is Coming to America

By Cliff Kincaid  |  September 23, 2008

Amtrak remains in many ways not only a typical state-owned corporation, modeled on the now obsolete mid-20th Century European-Socialist template, but also to a large extent modeled on the even more obsolete private-American railroad model.  Plous points out that Amtrak must be tied to government in order to maintain its privileged access to America’s privately owned freight railroads.  If it weren’t for the law that allows Amtrak access passenger trains would be put on a siding for hours while freight trains had priority of passage.  The connection with government also helps the passenger train industry obtain insurance at reasonable rates.  For these reasons, Plous says, “these essential resources cannot be unbundled from Amtrak or from Government.”

He concludes, “a great deal of Amtrak can â€" and should â€" be unbundled, and most of the unbundled components can be successfully relocated in the private sector.

SOURCE: Accuracy in Media Foundation
http://www.aim.org/aim-column/socialism-is-coming-to-america/

Amtrak's Legacy of Financial Failure

This year Amtrak is celebrating its 25th anniversary. The train system first came under government ownership during the Nixon administration. At the time, the marriage between the railroad and the federal government was called an "experiment" to make money-losing passenger rail service profitable again.

Yet Amtrak continues to rely on public subsidies. Between 1971 and 1981, annual federal appropriations to Amtrak rose from $140 million to $850 million. [5] During the Reagan administration, the railroad received an average annual subsidy of $600 million a year. In the 1990s Amtrak subsidies have been climbing again. In 1995 taxpayer subsidies exceeded $1 billion. While in the hands of the government, Amtrak need not worry about such matters as a bottom line profit and loss statement. Congress has proven time and again that it is willing to lend a financial hand.

There is little evidence that, over its 25 years as a federal enterprise, Amtrak has made progress toward financial self-sufficiency. Indeed, in recent years Amtrak management has been agitating for more than a $1 billion infusion of funds for the purchase of new trains and equipment. These taxpayer subsidies appear to continue because of supposed national benefits of Amtrak service.
SOURCE: Cato Institute - 1996
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-266.html

THE WAR ON CARS
by Alan Caruba

Like most Americans, I had always been vaguely aware that the cost of owning a car, buying a new one, and the general use of cars nationwide, had been rising for years. We were told that this was necessary to “clean the air”, “become more energy efficient”, and “increase the use of mass transit...”

...Slowly, I became aware of a virtual war on drivers (and truckers) being orchestrated by the Federal government which, in turn, imposed mandates upon the States...

...What really is happening on our highways and roads? Well, in 1997, the death rate on the nation’s roads fell to a record low. The U.S. Department of Transportation concluded there were 1.6 deaths per 100 million miles traveled. Mind you, despite efforts to get Americans to use trains have totally failed. The future of Amtrak, established in 1970, is very shaky. Since its inception, the number of miles traveled by car has risen by two thirds to more than 2.8 trillion.
SOURCE: AMERICAN POLICY CENTER - 1999 - http://americanpolicy.org/property-rights/the-war-on-cars.html

Amtrak service wastes taxpayer's money and hurts private companies

I have been very critical of Amtrak service, especially the second train that was added between Seattle and Vancouver B.C. First of all, Amtrak service competes with private intercity transportation services, like charter buses and more importantly the airline industry. Amtrak’s public subsidy places airlines at a competitive disadvantage and there are examples where some airlines have had to cut service.

Secondly, the higher ridership on Amtrak was mostly a result of the Winter Olympics held in Vancouver B.C., so it’s not surprising that more people used the service.

Finally, according to the WSDOT press release, 138,000 trips were taken on the four trains between Seattle and Vancouver B.C. That equals 378 daily trips, or 95 trips per day, per train.

Amtrak loses millions of dollars per year to operate its trains. These loses are subsidized by taxpayers. Spending millions of dollars in public money to carry 378 people between Seattle and Vancouver B.C. is laughable and unnecessary when there are plenty of other travel alternatives.

Amtrak’s public subsidy wastes taxpayer’s money and hurts private companies. If Amtrak wants to continue this service, then users should fully cover their own transportation costs, not taxpayers.
SOURCE: WASHINGTON POLICY CENTER - JAN 2011 -  http://www.washingtonpolicy.org/blog/post/amtrak-service-wastes-taxpayers-money-and-hurts-private-companies

RICK SCOTT, didn't invent this stuff, in fact he is a Johnny-come-lately to the whole "highway-airline monopoly movement," and quite the ammature, I predict he won't be the last either, he is just one more of hundreds.

Those articles?...Sadly, I could have included another 50-100 foundations, institutes and think tanks, and THOUSANDS of pages of anti-rail propaganda.

Since this thread is supposed to be about STREETCAR JACKSONVILLE, you might find it interesting to know that you will no longer find GENERAL MOTORS, FIRESTONE, PHILLIPS 66, STANDARD OIL, GREYHOUND, MACK TRUCKS, YELLOW COACH, all once partners in NATIONAL CITY LINES, or their foundations out slinging mud at streetcars and interurban's.

There are 3 reasons for this:

1. They successfully destroyed the rail transit industry of the early-mid 1900's.
2. They were successfully sued and found guilty of a conspiracy to destroy rail transit.
3. Today, somewhat wiser, you WILL find their names as principal contributors to the ultra-conservative think tanks and foundations that are working to eliminate any residual rail services we have left in this country.

So to all of you that think the sky is falling with Rick Scott, for those of us in the railroad industry those clouds have been swirling about our feet for years.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

The ability to compete for federal funding and overcoming a bad state/federal working relationship has nothing to do with being a railroader. What is your timeline and estimated costs for everything you talk about? How much federal and state funding assistance do you anticipate?

[Ocklawaha]

VILLAGE OF EAST TROY ELECTRIC RAILWAY, WI, and that Conductor flagging the crossing? VOLUNTEER! Oh and YES they run freight trains, spelled $$$$$$$ $$$$$$.


VOLUNTEER MECHANICAL, TUCSON, OLD PUEBLO


Kenneth Hutchison, VOLUNTEER MOTORMAN, MC KINNEY AVENUE STREETCAR, DALLAS


San Francisco Muni Historic Streetcar "Castro Fleet," VOLUNTEER RESTORATION ARTISANS.


"Budd," Keeps all of the controllers in top shape, ROCK HILL, PA. VOLUNTEER


Randy Bogucki and Ryan Kane do track inspection, VOLUNTEERS Rochester & Genesee Valley Railroad museum


Gandy Dancers "VOLUNTEERS FOR HELL" LOL, Wrecker Derrick Crew
Bobby Bellipanni, Edwin Etheridge, Hilton Toney, Donald Chase, Walter Chisholm, James Earl White, Hubert Deer, Bert Cockerham and Delton Moak. will receive Volunteer of the Year Certificates from Volunteer Executive Director Winnie Len Howell at the Railroad Family Picnic.  This team is credited with countless hours building track and restoring the wrecker derrick so that it could be relocated alongside the Railroad Museum's other rail collection.

Just an observation Lake, those of us in railroading have been watching the carpet being yanked out from under us for so long we have calloused butts. The point being that after the 200th project goes up in flames, you get the feeling this one is no different. This HSR project is going to change things maybe for all the newbies (most MJ crew and readers) but for us old timers, it's the same old shit, different day. I don't know how long Faye, Mtrain or LPBrennan have been dreaming, praying and fighting for more trains but if any of them read this and respond, I believe they'll have a similar opinion about our future...IE: SAME OLD SHIT DIFFERENT DAY.

Watching the ATLANTA-JAX proposal move forward without and local or regional momentum, might be a tip of the cards from the Obama Administration that says we are still very much on the front burner here in JACKSONVILLE. We are unique because we are on the map of two DIFFERENT high speed rail "companies," and in the vision of a third. Only Chicago will beat us in the number of high speed railroad companies though we'll probably never have as many trains.

As for time line, many of the improvements could start tomorrow, the easier items such as:

Ramping up the bus shelter-ad program
Bus route rationalization and consolidations
Aggressive leasing program for SKYWAY station vendors

This could be taken all the way down to details, such as a "transit fan shop," where transit collectors, rail and bus buffs etc. could buy the typical fan trappings, and have sets of JTA photos, toys, tee shirts, hoodies, posters, and large framed shots and art available at a price.
*http://www.transitmuseumstore.com/drupal/?utm_source=site&utm_medium=website&utm_campaign=nytm-home
*http://www.ctagifts.com/d/?utm_source=home&utm_medium=website&utm_campaign=cta-home
*http://www.zazzle.com/san+francisco+muni+gifts

As for streetcar and Skyway, I would set several dates for public meetings but I'd do them in a "rally in the park" format... add music and a few baby kissing politicians. Meetings with the local branch of groups such as National Railway Historical Society, Railway and Locomotive Historical Society, Monorail Society etc. and organize a JACKSONVILLE TRACTION and JACKSONVILLE MONORAIL groups which will help with planning, volunteer restoration, cleaning, mechanics, operations, etc. As you know Lake, this was started in Troy, WI and Baltimore, and IS DONE in Dallas and several other places (Tucson was doing it but I'm not sure today with the new system going in).  If we line up the ducks now, by the time the mobility plan passes review, we could experience immediate changes.

Each group would solicit for donations of labor, talent, materials, from throughout our community. While we would certainly have a vision on a map, we wouldn't be trying to build it all at once, start small and grow into it. As the mobility plan (or other resources) come into play, some of these early methods would shift to standard practices, but I would NOT exclude our volunteer groups. Standard practice could mean modern light rail vehicles or streetcars, monorails, track, signal, wire, upgrades.

This assumes a hybrid of LONG TIME museum practice, a transit academy for young people, and current modern transit system. Building the streetcar line one block at a time, again using as many volunteer's as we can organize. I'd also be working with the National Guard, Sea Bee's, Army Engineers, Army Corps of Railway Engineers, Naval Reserves and Sea Scouts, Boy, Girl, Eagle, scouts etc.