High Speed Rail is Dead, Time for STREETCAR JACKSONVILLE

[Ocklawaha]

Well, the worst of several high speed rail plans that I've seen in my lifetime has gone down in flames, much to the benefit of the high speed rail movement in the United States. I'd rather have NO railroad system then a BAD and dysfunctional railroad system...

But here in JACKSONVILLE we have new fish to fry...  STREETCAR...
and this thread is about STREETCARS and URBAN TRANSIT.

It's smart, clean, and could well be funded by the end of this year...

For those that are interested the JACKSONVILLE HISTORICAL SOCIETY has a series on their website, STREETCAR I, II and III. Included is the following excerpt:

GETTING THERE FROM HERE -- Forty minutes to Ortega Island, and thirty to the Trout River on the Northside:  This is how long it took some of Jacksonville's streetcars to run from the downtown area in 1931, according to that year's Comprehensive City Plan.  Other travel times from downtown included ten minutes to Springfield and twenty-five to the vicinity of today's FCCJ Kent Campus on the Westside.  Is the present JTA bus schedule very much faster, especially considering any transfers from vehicle to vehicle?

The streetcar system did leave a lot to be desired, however, in the opinion of the City Plan from 1931.  The document stated that the local residents most affected were African Americans, who relied on trolleys more than white inhabitants did.  In the Plan's words, "As the town grew, its colored areas grew likewise, adjacent to the white areas.  As a result, the several separate and distinct colored areas came into being.  But now with the advent of business and industry into some of those old areas, the residents there are being forced father and farther from their places of labor to the point in some instances that domestics are required to travel on street cars an hour or more before reaching their destinations...  And as the city increases in population and area, this situation will become even more acute... (A)t this time, a domestic residing in the neighborhood of Davis and Eighth Street will consume 40-45 minutes in continuous riding time in going from her home to the site of her day's work in Avondale, regardless and irrespective of waits and transfers!  This state of affairs is not only unfair to the negro element but likewise unfair to those dependent upon them for domestic service.  This condition is due to the routings of the transit system with its bottle neck at Broad and Bay and the obsolete system of looping."

Within a few years of the report, however, the city's streetcars would lose their battle with (Motor Transit - National City Lines - GENERAL MOTORS) buses.  Springfield, for example, had its trolley cars replaced by these competitors in June 1934.  According to a Jacksonville Journal article from July 6, 1934, the last remaining streetcar lines in the city operated in the areas of La Villa, South Jacksonville, Kings Road, Edison-Fairfield (the Eastside), and Florida Avenue (today's A. Philip Randolph Boulevard on the Eastside).  And in December 1936, Jax streetcars would make their final runs.

So as usual, I picked up the challenge to the streetcars reputation:

"Davis and Eighth Street will consume 40-45 minutes in continuous riding time in going from her home to the site of her day's work in Avondale, regardless and irrespective of waits and transfers!"


It should be pointed out that our streetcar system had many miles of private
right-of-way, such as the median of Main, as well as alongside Grand, Baltic
and many other streets. As a result the comparison of travel times between
the streetcars and today's JTA in the article are misleading.

Based on the anecdotal times in the story:
40 minutes to Ortega from 8th and Davis
30 minutes to the Trout River from downtown. (which btw, the streetcars
never quite reached)

Today's times based on the JTA TRIP PLANNER, are the same at best, and much
worse in many cases.

THIS IS JTA TODAY:

5:50 AM...................6:00 AM...........6:24AM
Leave Pearl & Bay      RosaParks        48th & Main

The times above are 34 minutes for the CT-1 from downtown to 48th and Main,
a trip the streetcar made in 30 minutes.

"A domestic traveling from 2700 Davis to the Ortega Village" Is in for a
surprise...

The trip starts with the M-5,  From Davis to Rosa Parks
Where we transfer
The next phase is on the WS-2 which takes us to Roosevelt Plaza
Where we transfer
The final link is aboard the Ortega - NAS Neighborhood Shuttle
TOTAL ELAPSED TIME?

Streetcar - 1930 - 40 minutes with one transfer.
JTA Modern Bus - 2011 - 1 hour and 20 minutes with two transfers!

How about downtown to the vicinity of KENT CAMPUS FSCJ?

STREETCAR - 25 MINUTES
JTA = 27 MINUTES

# Go to: Rosa Parks Station, Hogan St. & Union St.
# Board: J.T.A. W.S.12 Line/Murray Hill-Edgewood at 7:00 pm (next 8:00 pm)
# Fare: Pay $1.00
# Get Off: F.S.C.J. Kent Campus at 7:27 pm

BY THE WAY, the streetcar system issued a transfer which allowed one to pass
from one car line to another in a single trip for a single fare. JTA, unlike
most every other transit agency in the world, can't spell  T R A N S F E R. For fear of losing dollar per passenger in extra fare - Makes one wonder how many MORE people would use the system if transfers returned?

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

Ock...I hate to tell you this...but the chances of street car in Jax. or any transit in Florida was dealt a huge blow today....we'll have a hard time funding these things w/ all local dollars, and the Feds aren't going to be too enthused about helping Florida with rail projects for a while.

[Timkin]

With fuel prices soaring ,,,and seemingly never-ending skyrocketing prices,  It seems now , more than ever before , it is time to take a closer look at alternative transportation methods such as this.

The Feds ..The Feds...The Feds....   are killing us .

[JeffreyS]

That is the exact thought I had today lets jump ahead of the rest of the State.

[Timkin]

Agreed...the sooner the better.  Enough !

[JeffreyS]

^Preach it.

[dougskiles]

We need a bigger voice for it.  Metro Jacksonville is great and reaches many people.  But I'm not sure it is enough provide a critical mass of supporters.  Ultimately we are going to need to start advertising on billboards and television.

[Dashing Dan]

We all need to support transit in general, not just streetcars, high speed rail, commuter rail, or whatever.  With TOD and a policy on complete streets, we could get a lot more benefit out of the transit system that we already have, and if  we don't have TOD and complete streets in place beforehand, we won't benefit much from rail.  So let's get moving!

[tufsu1]

whatever.  Because neither the national press or the feds missed the fact that we have an asshole for a governor?

Sometimes the defeatism is just breathtaking TUFSU.  Youve patiently explained for three years how nothing is possible and things are working out just fine.

hey...I'm not the one supporting a candidate for Mayor that sounds more and more like the Governor every day (check out his new TV ad)...and he even mentions that he is friends with the Governor during stump speaches.

[Jdog]

Though I'm not knowledgeable enough to debate you all on this, as a believer in public transportation, I thought I'd throw a few perceptions / thoughts out as a commoner (after all, commoners need convincing).  

If the Skyway had never been started, I would wholeheartedly be into the Streetcar thing; it's less expensive and operates at eye level, which probably draws more people into riding it.  

When I lived up north, debates on public transit often included the contention that transferring from one system to another is where time starts to add up.  I believe I've seen that disputed on Metrojacksonville.  

From my view, I'd be enamored with the idea of parking / living anywhere downtown, north or southbank, and only needing to ride the Skyway to get to the sports complex, convention center, "amusement park", Friendship Fountain, MOSH, Riverside etc., etc..      

The Skyway can't go everywhere, and there's enough room for both the Skyway and streetcars I assume, but I get a bit queasy thinking of not first trying to extend that system than add streetcars (for example, going to the sports complex  -- I think I've seen arguments about using streetcars to get there).  

After the Acosta bridge $'s, maintenance center, operations center, development of a knowledge base, does it remain so prohibitively expensive for extensions so as to not push for extensions first?  

So, in sum, I guess what needs to be clearly explained to someone like me are: the finances (Skyway: sunk costs versus "throwing good money after bad", new extensions; costs of new systems, ) and the perception that adding diff't types of transit causes a travel burden.

All the ideas I read here are great.  I just don't know how to conceptualize the overall plan and come to my own firm opinions when I see the push for Streetcars.

Enjoy the weekend everybody and thanks for sharing your knowledge!      
 

[Ocklawaha]

Ock...I hate to tell you this...but the chances of street car in Jax. or any transit in Florida was dealt a huge blow today....we'll have a hard time funding these things w/ all local dollars, and the Feds aren't going to be too enthused about helping Florida with rail projects for a while.

BULL SHIT!

Scott isn''t the Mayor, isn't the Council, isn't Jacksonville...

Scott isn't Mass Transit, isn't High Speed Rail, isn't...

We have a mobility plan which with final approval makes Scott largely irrelevant.

We don't need FLORIDA

We don't need UNCLE SAM

WE ARE JACKSONVILLE STREETCAR!

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

I actually agree with tufsu1 on this one.  At some point people are going to have to start dreaming and begin relating funding issues with real timelines.  Scott's moves are really screwing up things and the domino effect will definitely impact local mass transit plans.

On the mass transit side, the majority of the listed mobility plan projects were intended to assist, not totally fund.  If we can't get state support for commuter rail, it will be delayed because the money or desire to raise taxes just isn't there.  In addition to this, there's also a push by the development community to take away concurrency altogether, so at this point, its still not a giving that the mobility fee will become a reality.  

Furthermore, in the event that it is, there are only two rail-based projects in the 10-year CIE.  
One is a fully funded $50 million streetcar line between DT and Park & King.  The other is a 25% local match (meaning you still need 25% state, 50% federal) for the north commuter rail corridor.  Thus, in 10 years, if everything worked out to plan, all we would have that we don't have now is a 3.5 mile streetcar line to Riverside in operation.

Btw, here is a list of all the priority projects projected to be funded by the mobility plan between now 2020.

Zone 1 - Philips Highway (4 to 6 lanes between I-95 and Baymeadows Road) - $27 million

Zone 2 - Southside Blvd (4 to 6 lanes between JTB and Beach Blvd) - $40.1 million

Zone 3 - New Berlin Road (2 to 4 lanes between Pulaski and Cedar Point Rd) - $39.5 million

Zone 4 - Dunn Avenue (2 to 4 lanes between New Kings and I-295) - $23.8 million

Zone 5 - Trout River Blvd (2 to 4 lanes between Old Kings to New Kings Rd) - $6.1 million

Zone 6 - Normandy Blvd (4 to 6 lanes between 103rd St to I-295) - $54.3 million

Zone 7 - Streetcar (downtown to Riverside-King Street) - $50 million

Zone 8 - Philips Highway (4 to 6 lanes between JTB and University) - $27 million

Zone 9 - North Commuter rail corridor (DT to Zoo Parkway) - $20 million


Just in case everyone is interested, here is a list of all the mass transit projects listed in the Mobility Plan.  However, all aren't anticipated to be completed until 2030/2035.

1. Commuter Rail (DT to Airport Center Drive) - $31.25 million as 25% local match by MP ($125 million total).

2. Commuter Rail SE (DT to Avenues Walk) - $20 million as 25% local match by MP ($80 million total).

3. Commuter Rail SW (DT to I-295) - $29 million as 25% local match by MP ($117 million total)

4. Streetcar (DT to Park & King) - $50 million fully funded by MP

5. Skyway (Kings Ave to Atlantic Blvd) - $21 million fully funded by MP


This would be my advice at this point.

1. Make sure a visionary mayor is elected next month. Get the wrong person in and the MP could be up in smoke as well.

2. Focus on better utilizing the Skyway to increase ridership and cut down O&M costs before 2017.

3. Integrate DT/urban core land use development plans with skyway corridor, BRT, future commuter rail and streetcar alignments.

4. In the short term, focus on improving mass transit connectivity in the urban core.  We're stretching ourselves to thin trying to force mass transit all over a suburban city. Instead, we'll get more bang for our buck by focusing on areas that can actually support it and expanding from there.

5. Continue to educate others on the importance of mass transit and work to find creative solutions to funding problems.

[Captain Zissou]

Zone 8 - Philips Highway (4 to 6 lanes between Emerson and University) - $27 million

I'd say this is 100% not needed.  I drove this route every day for 15 months and never once felt like traffic was too much for the rode capacity.  Fixing the signaling at Bowden/University and Philips would be a better and cheaper fix.

[thelakelander]

My bad, its not the stretch between Emerson & University.  Its the stretch between University and JTB.  Thus, it would address the intersection you just mentioned.

[Captain Zissou]

 

My bad, its not the stretch between Emerson & University.  Its the stretch between University and JTB.  Thus, it would address the intersection you just mentioned.

^ That is probably more needed, but again I think a signaling change at the intersection of JTB and Philips, or the proposed redo of that entire stretch of road from Belfort to Philips, would be a more effective remedy.  Philips highway isn't fantastic to drive on, but I think the capacity of the road is fine.  Dealing with the many intersections you have are the bigger problem, IMO.  

A rail line paralleling Philips would do much more for that area.  Imagine how many people would be sitting at the intersection of Philips and JTB, see a train whiz by them, and then start to use that as their daily commute option.