Rick Scott reconsidering HSR

[thelakelander]

If the USF Poly site is chosen, its really the only one (in Polk County) along the route that has a pretty good chance a major TOD opportunities.  It will be anchored with a full blown university.  Assuming a Polk resident wanted to go to DT Orlando, they just transfer to Sunrail at Orlando's airport or take Amtrak in.  You can see the Sunrail connection on this map.



However, I'd shoot for a modified style of system that creates more local stations along the route to make it appeal to a larger population.  I'd shoot for something like this, while allowing the project to be bid on by the private sector before outright giving $2.4 billion to another state.

[peestandingup]

Ock, I agree with about everything you've said. I think the administration & everyone involved with this needs to REALLY study these towns & compare them to the towns where HSR actually works. They're jumping the gun big time IMO. The "By God, if China & Europe can do it, so can we!" mentality isn't really applicable to us just yet. So Obama needs to slow his roll a bit & think about this. Hell, just come down here & take a drive through to see what it would be like for the average rider to get to these destinations.

Like I said earlier, a lot of the US is simply set up & designed AROUND the car. We've let it go for decades like this, so just slapping a HSR on top of an already car-centric infrastructure isn't the way. Yeah sure, it can/does work in the Northeast & some of the West, but most of those towns were setup & continued to be built around pedestrians, are more condensed, have good solid transit systems, etc. We obviously don't do that down here (and most of the country). Sure, we DID do that back in the day around these parts, but that's long gone now & replaced with a bunch of uncontrolled/unnecessary sprawl.

So this is a big problem that's going to need careful & aggressive planning. I personally think they need to take more of a "master plan" approach to this if they truly want it to succeed. Give that money to each of these towns to build their own transit systems, with the explicit INTENTION of following it up with connectivity via HSR. They could do it all in less than 10 years if they really wanted to.

HSR is really the final piece of this puzzle, but they wanna make it the first.

[thelakelander]

Here is where I disagree.  We get used to Jax's inaction on these topics and sometime assume that every other municipality treats these issues the same exact way.  This is not the case.  With every HSR corridor, we need to look at their implementation on a case-by-case basis.  For example, in many places the local transit network is already in place (ex. California, Midwest, etc.), meaning establishing high speed connections between regional metropolitan areas a logical move.  

Nevertheless, looking at most comments made on MJ, it seems the most of the fuss here is about Florida's HSR plan, with little regard to what communities around the state are doing to improve their local networks and how they tie into them.  In reality, most of these cities have pretty decent plans on improving their mass transit systems in the short term and are working to ensure the proper connections are in place.

As mentioned several times in the past, I'm not a real fan of how Florida's HSR plan has been drawn up so far.  However, I do believe the decision to seek private sector financial involvement will lead to modifications that will resolve most of the complaints mentioned here.  Unfortunately, our governor doesn't even want to allow this bidding process to take place (I personally think he's scared a group would actually step up and make it work), meaning we're setting ourselves up at losing a HUGE opportunity that most likely won't be back for another decade or so.  That's a chance that if I had any real say in the discussion, I would not be willing to take.

Btw, this fallout is going to hurt Jax.  Don't forget, all of these projects are tied together.  Sunrail would have never been approved if not for the State's desire to get HSR money. With HSR gone, smart money is that Sunrail will be next.  When it goes, so goes the money to fix JAXPORT's rail capacity issues and the opportunity to connect DT with Clay County via commuter rail on the A-line.

[peestandingup]

I hear what you're saying. And I agree that they have it more together than we do, but that's not saying much (we're colossally bad here). I just don't see it being nearly enough to support HSR at this point. If they're each truly moving forward aggressively to solve this, then that's one thing. But they're all separate entities, have different mayors, different mindsets, etc. Meaning, I'm not sure how much I'd bank on each of these things actually getting done. You know as well as I do how many times plans like these go up in smoke. All it takes is a new mayor or some budget crises in one of these towns & the whole thing could become pretty unusable.

If this is all we got then its all we got, I just think its a bad way to go about it & dont want to see it fail because of shortsightedness & failure to look at the bigger picture.

[thelakelander]

^In Jax, there may not be support.  However, there is a ton of support in the rest of the state.  They actually are starting to get it down there.  From my understanding, their (the local governments and USDOT) goal is to create a separate authority to see HSR through but it doesn't appear Scott (State) will give them an opportunity.

[peestandingup]

^In Jax, there may not be support.  However, there is a ton of support in the rest of the state.  They actually are starting to get it down there.  From my understanding, their (the local governments and USDOT) goal is to create a separate authority to see HSR through but it doesn't appear Scott (State) will give them an opportunity.

Ugh, it figures. That SOB is determined to kill this thing somehow. He needs to go if we ever wanna truly get this done the right way.

[tufsu1]

State law allows 2 (or more) local governments to create a regional authority....Tampa and Orlando have pretty much agreed to do so and Lakeland has also voiced support.

In the end, they need Scott's "approval" because the ROW along I-4 and the Beachline is owned by FDOT

[FayeforCure]

As mentioned several times in the past, I'm not a real fan of how Florida's HSR plan has been drawn up so far.  However, I do believe the decision to seek private sector financial involvement will lead to modifications that will resolve most of the complaints mentioned here.  Unfortunately, our governor doesn't even want to allow this bidding process to take place (I personally think he's scared a group would actually step up and make it work), meaning we're setting ourselves up at losing a HUGE opportunity that most likely won't be back for another decade or so.  That's a chance that if I had any real say in the discussion, I would not be willing to take.

Btw, this fallout is going to hurt Jax.  Don't forget, all of these projects are tied together.  Sunrail would have never been approved if not for the State's desire to get HSR money. With HSR gone, smart money is that Sunrail will be next.  When it goes, so goes the money to fix JAXPORT's rail capacity issues and the opportunity to connect DT with Clay County via commuter rail on the A-line.

Excellent piece for an Op/Ed in the Florida Times Union! Go for it lakelander!!!!!

[Ocklawaha]

Here is where I disagree.  We get used to Jax's inaction on these topics and sometime assume that every other municipality treats these issues the same exact way.  This is not the case.  With every HSR corridor, we need to look at their implementation on a case-by-case basis.  For example, in many places the local transit network is already in place (ex. California, Midwest, etc.), meaning establishing high speed connections between regional metropolitan areas a logical move.

But Jax inaction doesn't mean that Polk County buying a city bus or two is a game changer... Not for them and not for us.

Nevertheless, looking at most comments made on MJ, it seems the most of the fuss here is about Florida's HSR plan, with little regard to what communities around the state are doing to improve their local networks and how they tie into them.  In reality, most of these cities have pretty decent plans on improving their mass transit systems in the short term and are working to ensure the proper connections are in place.

When your trains only run every hour (as planned in Florida West of Disney) then calculating an average wait time of 30 minutes, so anyone boarding the super fast train, can expect a trip length from OIA to TAMPA of 80 minutes or 1 hour and 20 minutes.

The same trip via I-4 is 85.4 miles long and will take 86 minutes, or 1 hour and 26 minutes. Thus the automobile is safely to say, within 6 minutes of the HSR trip time. Worse still, in order to beat the automobiles time, one would have to assume that you could get from WHERE-EVER in the metro, to OIA, park and/or leave the bus side of the terminal and walk into the train station within 6 minutes! I think even Faye could see the stupidity in thinking this will succeed. So for all of the Billions thrown at this alignment we end up with a negative or deficit effect on the travel time.

As mentioned several times in the past, I'm not a real fan of how Florida's HSR plan has been drawn up so far.  However, I do believe the decision to seek private sector financial involvement will lead to modifications that will resolve most of the complaints mentioned here.  Unfortunately, our governor doesn't even want to allow this bidding process to take place (I personally think he's scared a group would actually step up and make it work), meaning we're setting ourselves up at losing a HUGE opportunity that most likely won't be back for another decade or so.  That's a chance that if I had any real say in the discussion, I would not be willing to take.

There is simply no amount of buses, or metros, anywhere that can make this railroad route work as a HSR line. Just one more reason that Florida's plan wasn't in the top 100 "likely" projects. The real downfall of this plan is the fixation on Orlando and it's Airport as key to railroad success and as long as it remains central in their planning, we might as well be building it in ANGOLA (except that Angola likely has better transit).

In order to succeed in Florida with HSR, we need to be looking at two key things - long-haul segments and urban density segments. For example under Long-Haul, we might co-op with Georgia on an Atlanta-Jax-Miami route, or extend the NYC-WASH-Savannah-Jax Southeast HSR project to Orlando and on to Tampa, but only as the terminal segment of a much longer haul. Orlando-Tampa can't stand alone, and adding Miami by way of Orlando simply creates more short segments that will fail.

Ideally from from JACKSONVILLE to ORLANDO and TAMPA as well as TAMPA to MIAMI, the solution should be much more like an extended SUNRAIL or TRIRAIL service that ties back into Amtrak and HSR at either MIAMI or JACKSONVILLE.

Btw, this fallout is going to hurt Jax.  Don't forget, all of these projects are tied together.  Sunrail would have never been approved if not for the State's desire to get HSR money. With HSR gone, smart money is that Sunrail will be next.  When it goes, so goes the money to fix JAXPORT's rail capacity issues and the opportunity to connect DT with Clay County via commuter rail on the A-line.

The JAXPORT pieces will come together with or without HSR or SUNRAIL. The Post Panamax era, national interests, defense and port momentum will force the fix at JAXPORT.  Add the Mobility Plan, and it is possible that JACKSONVILLE sleeps through the storm and comes out on top. Other projects canceled and broken by Scott and Jacksonville self financing success.


OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

Here is where I disagree.  We get used to Jax's inaction on these topics and sometime assume that every other municipality treats these issues the same exact way.  This is not the case.  With every HSR corridor, we need to look at their implementation on a case-by-case basis.  For example, in many places the local transit network is already in place (ex. California, Midwest, etc.), meaning establishing high speed connections between regional metropolitan areas a logical move.

But Jax inaction doesn't mean that Polk County buying a city bus or two is a game changer... Not for them and not for us.

No, but Jax residents need to know all the details before outright assuming that these other municipalities aren't working hard to improve their local mass transit operations before (what appears to now be two dead rail projects) comes online.

When your trains only run every hour (as planned in Florida West of Disney) then calculating an average wait time of 30 minutes, so anyone boarding the super fast train, can expect a trip length from OIA to TAMPA of 80 minutes or 1 hour and 20 minutes.

The same trip via I-4 is 85.4 miles long and will take 86 minutes, or 1 hour and 26 minutes. Thus the automobile is safely to say, within 6 minutes of the HSR trip time. Worse still, in order to beat the automobiles time, one would have to assume that you could get from WHERE-EVER in the metro, to OIA, park and/or leave the bus side of the terminal and walk into the train station within 6 minutes! I think even Faye could see the stupidity in thinking this will succeed. So for all of the Billions thrown at this alignment we end up with a negative or deficit effect on the travel time.

Your statement makes the assumption that the majority of riders will be going from end point to end point.  That's not the I-4 travel pattern.  Never has, never will be.  This is where I believe it makes sense to turn the project over to the private sector and let them vet things out before giving up a chance for $2.4 billion.  If given a chance, we may discover that modifications can be made within the existing program to improve its feasibility.  Outright dismissing before turning it over to rail industry professionals, gets us no where on any level.

As mentioned several times in the past, I'm not a real fan of how Florida's HSR plan has been drawn up so far.  However, I do believe the decision to seek private sector financial involvement will lead to modifications that will resolve most of the complaints mentioned here.  Unfortunately, our governor doesn't even want to allow this bidding process to take place (I personally think he's scared a group would actually step up and make it work), meaning we're setting ourselves up at losing a HUGE opportunity that most likely won't be back for another decade or so.  That's a chance that if I had any real say in the discussion, I would not be willing to take.

There is simply no amount of buses, or metros, anywhere that can make this railroad route work as a HSR line. Just one more reason that Florida's plan wasn't in the top 100 "likely" projects. The real downfall of this plan is the fixation on Orlando and it's Airport as key to railroad success and as long as it remains central in their planning, we might as well be building it in ANGOLA (except that Angola likely has better transit).

Maybe it works better as a conventional line with HSR being in the form of express and commuter as local?  Why not put it out to bid and see what the private sector thinks about it and potential modifications?  If it doesn't work, it won't be built.

In order to succeed in Florida with HSR, we need to be looking at two key things - long-haul segments and urban density segments. For example under Long-Haul, we might co-op with Georgia on an Atlanta-Jax-Miami route, or extend the NYC-WASH-Savannah-Jax Southeast HSR project to Orlando and on to Tampa, but only as the terminal segment of a much longer haul. Orlando-Tampa can't stand alone, and adding Miami by way of Orlando simply creates more short segments that will fail.

I don't see why planning like this can't take place without giving up access to the $2.4 billion.  

Ideally from from JACKSONVILLE to ORLANDO and TAMPA as well as TAMPA to MIAMI, the solution should be much more like an extended SUNRAIL or TRIRAIL service that ties back into Amtrak and HSR at either MIAMI or JACKSONVILLE.

Amtrak happens to be one of the entities wanting a chance at developing this corridor.  Again, there is no reason why long term planning can't incorporate some of the concepts without immediately throwing out the baby ($2.4 billion) with the bathwater (Tampa/Orlando HSR link as planned).

Btw, this fallout is going to hurt Jax.  Don't forget, all of these projects are tied together.  Sunrail would have never been approved if not for the State's desire to get HSR money. With HSR gone, smart money is that Sunrail will be next.  When it goes, so goes the money to fix JAXPORT's rail capacity issues and the opportunity to connect DT with Clay County via commuter rail on the A-line.

The JAXPORT pieces will come together with or without HSR or SUNRAIL. The Post Panamax era, national interests, defense and port momentum will force the fix at JAXPORT.  Add the Mobility Plan, and it is possible that JACKSONVILLE sleeps through the storm and comes out on top. Other projects canceled and broken by Scott and Jacksonville self financing success.

[/quote]

The Mobility Plan won't do much, if anything for JAXPORT in the next 20 years (assuming Scott doesn't kill the concept of concurrency period).  None of the initial 10-year CIE projects are directly JAXPORT related.  With that said, perhaps all of JAXPORT's pieces will come together.  However, it could be in 2035 or 2050, instead of 2015 or 2020.  History has proven we're good at completely missing the boat when the opportunity presents itself.  You can look no further than your skyway/streetcar experience of the 1970s/80s or JTA's mishandling of the BJP $100 million.  With each, delay and throw the baby out with bathwater move, we fall a little more behind our peers.  It appears, we're about to blow another opportunity.

[FayeforCure]

Fla. high-speed rail plan gets another reprieve
 
The Associated Press
Friday, February 25, 2011; 2:35 PM

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. -- A proposed high-speed rail line between Tampa and Orlando in Florida has gotten another reprieve.

U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood has given Florida Gov. Rick Scott another week to reconsider his decision to turn down $2.4 billion in federal money for the project after the two met Friday in Washington, D.C.

LaHood said he gave Scott additional time after the governor asked for more information about a revised plan.

Scott refused the original federal offer because he was afraid the state would be stuck with billions in unexpected costs.

The governor also rejected the revised plan for absolving the state of financial or legal obligation by turning the project over to local governments, but now he'll take another look.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/25/AR2011022504430.html

[Mattius92]

Does it take an energy crisis for him to reconsider this plan..?

[wsansewjs]

I personally think Rick "Dick-Head" Scott has too much power as a Governor of Florida in terms of making decisions that affects the growth. This is a backlash to the idea of independent local governments trying to organize and improve their development in their own backyard.

-Josh

[JeffreyS]

I think he is feeling intense pressure from his fellow republicans.

[Mattius92]

I hope so, because even Republicans wont turn away $2.4 billion...