Rick Scott reconsidering HSR

[JeffreyS]

Scott Reconsidering High-Speed Rail
Governor Wants Less Risk For State

POSTED: Monday, February 21, 2011
UPDATED: 9:09 am EST February 21, 2011
ORLANDO, Fla. -- After a random run in with Sen. Bill Nelson, D-Fla., at the Daytona 500, Gov. Rick Scott said he is reconsidering turning down federal money for a high-speed rail in Florida.
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/26936726/detail.html

Scott said he is still skeptical because there is $300 million of the project that the federal government isn't paying for.

The governor announced last week that he planned to turn down funding for the high-speed rail, a move that baffled many Floridians and lawmakers because 90 percent of the project would be paid for with federal stimulus money.

The rail would run from Tampa to Orlando and then eventually to Miami and other large cities in the state.

Scott said he is willing to look at a plan that cuts down the financial risk to the state.

Nelson spoke out last week and said he would try to find away around Scott's decision and bring high-speed rail to Florida without him.

Scott and Nelson will appear together in Brevard County on Monday morning for a ribbon cutting ceremony at Melbourne International Airport.

[copperfiend]

I think we would be better off using the federal funds for erecting statues of Ronald Reagan at all public schools.

[JeffreyS]

High-speed rail advocates say they have way to save project

By Alex Leary, Richard Danielson and Danny Valentine, Times Staff Writers
Posted: Feb 21, 2011 10:38 AM
http://www.tampabay.com/news/transportation/masstransit/high-speed-rail-advocates-say-they-have-way-to-save-project/1152918

TAMPA â€" High-speed rail advocates on Monday outlined a plan to form a partnership of local governments that would assume responsibility for the project Gov. Rick Scott says he does not want.

"We are working together to keep the high-speed rail plans alive in Florida and keep the thousands of jobs right here," U.S. Rep. Kathy Castor, D-Tampa, said during a 10 a.m. conference call.

On Sunday, Scott said he would be willing to look at a plan, but expressed doubts that it could alleviate any financial risk to taxpayers. The plan outlined Monday morning relies on state law allowing local governments to form coalitions.

Officials in Tampa, Orlando and Lakeland have expressed interest.

The group, technically known as a "non recourse entity," would become a subgrantee to the state and receive the $2.4 billion in federal funding then put the project out to bid.

Tampa Mayor Pam Iorio stressed it would be a "privatized" project that does not carry financial cost.

"There is a way clear here," she said. The state would have to grant the new entity the right of way along the Orlando-Tampa route, and provide technical expertise.

The idea would fail without Scott's approval and partnership from the state DOT, Tampa city attorney Chip Fletcher conceded.

Backers hope to have the plan before Scott in the next day or so.

Meanwhile, supporters of high-speed rail will rally Monday in Tampa in hopes of persuading Scott on the issue.

Former Tampa City Council member Linda Saul-Sena is helping organize a "Rally for High Speed Rail" in conjunction with the group Livable Tampa Roundtable. The rally is scheduled for noon at City Hall Plaza, at the southeast corner of East Kennedy Boulevard and Franklin Street.

U.S. Sen. Bill Nelson, who extracted the small measure of openness from Scott at the Daytona 500 on Sunday, planned to press the governor again today at an event in Melbourne.

[FayeforCure]

lawyers from the U.S. Department of Transportation are on the way to convince Gov. Scott taxpayers won't be responsible for the money.

http://www.cfnews13.com/article/news/2011/february/210414/Sen.-Bill-Nelson-says-theres-still-hope-for-high-speed-rail

What a farce.........of course tricky ricky knows the state won't be responsible for the money........as in "cost over-runs or even repaying back the entire $2.4 billion if the system fails." That's total BS.

As I've said before........no amount of convincing with actual facts is going to sway PURE KOCH BROTHERS OIL IDEOLOGY.

[JeffreyS]

My hope is that the bold statements that the State is not on the hook will back him into a corner.  He will have stood up for the Tea Partiers and not look like a fool for turning down the investment in Florida.  I do not hold much of that hope however.

BTW: If he secures more concrete assurances that Florida is protected from overruns I will concede his maneuver added some benefits for his constituency. 

[thelakelander]

Scott dismisses new high-speed rail assurances

MELBOURNE â€" Gov. Rick Scott Monday waved off efforts by supporters of high-speed rail to assure him that the $2.7-billion project would not cost Florida taxpayers any money, dismissing as "all these hypothetical's" promises that either private companies or the federal government would pay for any cost overruns.

"I am not convinced there is any plan that will get the taxpayers off the hook," Scott told reporters after meeting briefly with U.S. Sen. Bill Nelson, D-Fla., at a new Embraer aircraft plant that will assemble executive jets here.

The governor also said he had still not decided on whether the state should go ahead with construction of the $1.2-billion SunRail commuter train in Central Florida. The project, which was approved in 2009, is still "under review," he said, adding he had no timetable on when he might decide.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/politics/os-high-speed-rail-talks-20110221,0,2658301.story

[mtraininjax]

Let's all beat the dead horse until the 25th when LaHood shuts it down or, for my personal enjoyment, extends the deadline so that we can see who else jumps through new hoops for the money.

[peestandingup]

I'm ALL for rail, but I honestly don't like the plan for two reasons. One, it doesnt really hit up a lot of the major destinations (the downtowns, the beaches, airports, etc). And two, these two cities don't have very good transit infrastructures to begin with.

Here's a good photo walk-through of what it would be like: http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2010/03/22/us/0322RAIL_index.html?ref=us

That doesn't sound appealing to me & kind of defeats the purpose of taking a train in the first place if I'm only going to need a car once I get there. I don't see how that's being useful, especially when the towns are so close together.

I personally think that connecting a bunch of cities that have bad transit in them is putting the cart before the horse. We've went so long in our country with letting our internal systems stagnate that trying to shoehorn HSR on top of that is going to be counterproductive IMO.

Meaning, the last thing I'd want to see is us all fighting to get this thing built just to see no one riding it. Then you could pretty much write off any notion of this being built out to serve the rest of FL (and probably kiss the rail movement goodbye in the country in general). I'd much rather see each city getting their acts together first with good transit systems, then trying to connect them all together.

[dougskiles]

^My thoughts exactly.

[thelakelander]

Orlando would have Sunrail, so it would have a fixed rail line to take riders into downtown, Winter Park and urban walkable spots in that city. Tampa's station would be in downtown and connected with BRT, streetcar and LRT (in the future). Most of these projects will be in place by the time HSR opens. Combine the proposed HSR infrastructure with local based commuter service and you have a decent start at implementing rail in Central Florida fairly quickly. When I get home i'll post some maps of the local systems that would connect with HSR.

[thelakelander]

Here are some graphics of the HSR route and other local transit systems in Tampa and Orlando that will be operational by the time HSR would have opened (2015).  By 2015, you would be able to get around decent chuncks of these cities with various forms of frequent local mass transit services.

Proposed Florida HSR alignment



Long Range HSR plan




Orlando HSR (blue line) /Sunrail commuter rail (orange/yellow lines)




For those who think you'll need to rent a car to get around in Orlando in 2015 (the year both would be operational), think again.








Sunrail map




Downtown Tampa's HSR station (at Marion Transit Center)






Downtown Tampa existing Streetcar and PCT routes




Tampa's proposed BRT system

[peestandingup]

Orlando would have Sunrail, so it would have a fixed rail line to take riders into downtown, Winter Park and urban walkable spots in that city. Tampa's station would be in downtown and connected with BRT, streetcar and LRT (in the future). Most of these projects will be in place by the time HSR opens. Combine the proposed HSR infrastructure with local based commuter service and you have a decent start at implementing rail in Central Florida fairly quickly. When I get home i'll post some maps of the local systems that would connect with HSR.

Yeah, please do. I'd like to see what they're each planning & how well it would work with the HSR. Lakeland doing anything??

All I know is, if I were the Mayor of these towns & the HSR actually gets the go-ahead to be built, I'd pull out all the stops to get my city ready & connected. Streetcars, light rail, commuter rail, whatever. They have to make it a top priority, find the money & just do it or else the whole system won't work. And there is literally everything riding on this to work. We're sorta under the microscope of the entire nation.

[thelakelander]

Last time I heard, Lakeland was still fighting with Polk County over where their stop should be located.  However, it appears the leading stop was at the USF Poly site, near the Polk Parkway and I-4.  The plans for this area are to develop 5,000 acres around the station as a walkable edge city.  Legoland (opening 15 miles south in Winter Haven this fall) was planning on having a dedicated shuttle move tourist between their new theme park and the Lakeland HSR station.  Here are a few renderings of the Lakeland site:


This rendering was developed before Obama restarted Florida's HSR project.  The USF Polytech HSR station would have been a part of the research park shown on this site layout.  While the site is low rise, take note that all of the buildings face the street, while surface parking is placed in the middle of blocks.  This layout is pretty similar to Disney's Celebration and Orlando's Baldwin Park.  This development is now under construction.


Lakeland HSR station.  Rendering doesn't acknowledge that it would be in the middle of a walkable community.


USF Polytechnical University rendering (image doesn't reflect walkable community to be built around it)

[Ocklawaha]

I'm ALL for rail, but I honestly don't like the plan for two reasons. One, it doesnt really hit up a lot of the major destinations (the downtowns, the beaches, airports, etc). And two, these two cities don't have very good transit infrastructures to begin with.

Here's a good photo walk-through of what it would be like: http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2010/03/22/us/0322RAIL_index.html?ref=us

That doesn't sound appealing to me & kind of defeats the purpose of taking a train in the first place if I'm only going to need a car once I get there. I don't see how that's being useful, especially when the towns are so close together.

I personally think that connecting a bunch of cities that have bad transit in them is putting the cart before the horse. We've went so long in our country with letting our internal systems stagnate that trying to shoehorn HSR on top of that is going to be counterproductive IMO.

Meaning, the last thing I'd want to see is us all fighting to get this thing built just to see no one riding it. Then you could pretty much write off any notion of this being built out to serve the rest of FL (and probably kiss the rail movement goodbye in the country in general). I'd much rather see each city getting their acts together first with good transit systems, then trying to connect them all together.

RED COACH LUXURY BUS - TODAY - ABOVE
A REAL FLORIDA PASSENGER RAIL ENTERPRISE - POSSIBLE TOMORROW MORNING - IF WE ONLY HAD A BRAIN

Funny, but it's exactly what several of us have been saying on here all along. I can't help but go back to a major study that was done by Continental Trailways back about 1980, and I think it still holds truth today. They found that no matter the mode, the passenger was several times more likely to be upset by a (fill in the blank...bus, train, plane) that was an hour late, then a bus, train or plane that took an hour longer! In other words and as Red Coach is proving, given enough luxury, there is still a huge market for 500-1,000 mile train trips that:

Provide a variety of services
coach - sightseeing - lounge
snack bar - full bar
business center
entertainment - live music - movies
gourmet meal services
choice of sleeping accommodations
singles
doubles
families
suites

...And if the trip takes one over a mealtime, THAT should be provided. Cocktail hour? Tea time? Late Night Munchies? AVAILABLE.

If it takes 10 hours to Atlanta, then it should be the most pleasant 10 traveling hours ever spent and from the study? ON TIME MEANS THE WHEELS STOP TURNING AT THE STATION PLATFORM WHEN THE SECOND HAND SWEEPS OVER THE 12.  Just do that, and we wouldn't even be talking about Europe or Asia's "faster trains,"  faster maybe so, more comfortable? Not a chance, all we need to do is recall a bit of Americana and we'd blow them away.

Here is the article and I've merged the two together for clarity:

Stimulus Plan for Rail Line Shows System of Weak Links
FLORIDA HIGH SPEED RAIL - A FAST TRAIN TO A SLOW BUS
By MICHAEL COOPER
Published: March 22, 2010

TAMPA â€" The drive from Orlando to Tampa takes only 90 minutes or so. Despite the short distance, the Obama administration awarded Florida $1.25 billion in stimulus money to link the cities with a fast train to help kick off its efforts to bring high-speed rail service to the United States.
Chip Litherland for The New York Times

The Florida train would indeed be high speed â€" as fast as 168 miles per hour. But because the trains would make five stops along the 84-mile route, the new service would shave only about half an hour off the trip.

After Florida won a $1.25 billion stimulus award to build a high-speed train between Orlando and Tampa, a little on-the-ground experimentation was called for. A recent test drive of the route took 82 minutes; the proposed train line has so many stops that it would only cut the trip to around 54 minutes. Odd bits of roadside Floridiana lined the drive, like these Airstream trailers planted off Interstate 4 by an intrepid R.V. dealer.

Given the meager half-hour time savings being promised, will people really leave their cars behind and ride the new trains, whose tracks will be built on the median of Interstate 4? One big problem would come when the train ride ended: Orlando and Tampa have few transit options, and are notoriously tough to navigate without cars. This brought to mind another experiment...

Time-pressed passengers may also find themselves frustrated at the end of their trip. Neither city is known for great public transportation, so travelers may discover that they have taken a fast train to a slow bus.

Proponents of high-speed rail worry that the new line, which is scheduled to be up and running in 2015, might hurt rather than help their cause, if it comes to be seen as little more than an expensive way to whisk tourists from Orlando International Airport to Walt Disney World, which is slated to get its own stop.

The goal was to use public transportation to get from downtown Tampa, near the proposed high-speed rail station, to the kind of sandy Gulf Coast beach that might lure tourists weary of inland Orlando's swimming pools and man-made lagoons. The starting point was the Marion Transit Center, a bus stop pictured here near the future train station.

10:20 a.m.: The trek began, when a 100X express bus left the transit center. The bus left on time, and was clean and air-conditioned. But it was not exactly speedy...

Even Representative John L. Mica, a Republican whose district in northeast Florida stops about 20 miles short of the proposed line, has questioned whether his state was the best choice to receive some of the $8 billion that was set aside in the stimulus act for high-speed rail.

Mr. Mica wondered if the notoriously congested Northeast corridor from Boston to New York to Washington, which was largely shut out of the pool of money, might have been a better choice.

“That would have the most dramatic impact, as far as a positive result for the country,” said Mr. Mica, who added that he was grateful for the investment in his home state.

State officials say they have been planning the route for decades and own most of the right of way needed for the tracks â€" a big selling point to the Obama administration, which saw it as the fastest and cheapest way to get a line up and running.

And Florida hopes that it would be only the first leg of a high-speed line that would eventually stretch south to Miami, linking several of the state’s tourism and business centers.

But it is unclear where the state will get the money to extend the train line. As it is, officials are uncertain where they would get the rest of the $2.6 billion that they believe is needed to build the Orlando to Tampa route.

...and the scenery was sometimes less than tropical. Tampa is weighing an increase in the sales tax to pay for a new light-rail system, but construction could be years off. A retro streetcar currently runs from its convention center to the Cuban restaurants and cigar bars of Ybor City, but the tracks do not extend to the bus station or the proposed train station.

Supporters of high-speed rail often argue that it can be a way to lure passengers off airplanes. Orlando and Tampa are so close, however, that no airlines fly between them.

The drive took less than 82 minutes on a couple of recent test runs by a reporter; the train is expected to cover the same ground in 54 to 58 minutes.

Even the Florida project’s planners have acknowledged it would have a limited impact on traffic. An environmental impact statement issued in 2005 estimated that the train would draw 11 percent of the 4.5 million people who drive between Tampa and Orlando each year.

Also on the 100X bus was Allana Strickland, 42, a carless tourist from Canada who was taking her daughter to the Salvador Dali Museum in St. Petersburg, less than 20 miles away. Their trip eventually took them more than two and a half hours, including a bout of motion sickness and an encounter with a panhandler at one stop who extolled the joys of wet T-shirt contests to them. "It's not as easy to get around here as it could be, for sure," Ms. Strickland said.

It also said the drivers who opted instead to ride the train “would not be sufficient to significantly improve” traffic flow on Interstate 4.

Tourists who try to use public transportation, rather than renting a car, may find themselves seeing sights they would rather avoid and missing some they would like to see. As the Frommer’s travel guide to Tampa advises, “Like most other Florida destinations, it’s virtually impossible to see Tampa’s major sights and enjoy its best restaurants without a car.”

A couple of tourists from Chilliwack, British Columbia â€" Allana Strickland and her teenage daughter, Sarah McKenzie â€" learned this firsthand recently. When they took the public bus from Tampa to the Salvador Dali Museum in nearby St. Petersburg, a major draw in the region, they found themselves on a journey that lasted more than two and half hours to go less than 20 miles.

11:41 a.m.: Time to switch to the third bus on the long trek to the beach. After nearly an hour on the express bus came a short wait at a mall, followed by a 20-minute ride on a local bus. The local bus made it here, to Williams Park in downtown St. Petersburg, where it was time to hop on this bus to St. Pete Beach. Another half-hour ride loomed.

“It’s not as easy to get around here as it could be, for sure,” Ms. Strickland said.

The Florida route was one of only two true high-speed rail projects â€" with trains capable of going more than 150 miles per hour, as is common in Europe and China â€" to win some of the $8 billion in high-speed rail money in the Stimulus Act that was awarded in January. (The Acela trains on the Northeast Corridor are capable of going 150 m.p.h., but average only around half that because they operate on crowded, curvy tracks.)

The other high-speed route is in California, which was awarded $2.25 billion, a small fraction of what it will need to build a rail line for trains that could travel from Los Angeles to San Francisco at speeds of up to 220 m.p.h.

The rest of the stimulus money was divided among 31 states, mostly to speed up existing train service by improving track and signal systems. Supporters see the Florida line as a hedge against future population growth and congestion.

12:40 p.m.: The last bus of the day. After a 15-minute wait at a strip mall, the last bus of the trek, called the Suncoast Beach Trolley and painted to look like one, arrived for its trip north toward Clearwater Beach. The end was in sight.

“We believe it’s a mode for the future, and we have to start today,” said Nazih Haddad, the chief operating officer for the Florida Rail Enterprise, a division of the state’s Department of Transportation. He said ridership studies projected that the route would attract enough passengers to cover its operating costs.

But when America 2050, a planning group, ranked potential routes last year in a report called “Where High Speed Rail Works Best,” the Tampa to Orlando route did not even make the cut, because the group found that cities should be at least 100 miles apart to capture riders.

The planned route from Tampa through Orlando to Miami did make the list, though: it was ranked 100th among potential routes in the United States.

If the project is built but is not successful, it could make it harder for other high-speed rail projects to get money in the future. Florida knows about that possibility firsthand: its voters once passed a constitutional amendment requiring the state to build a high-speed rail system, only to repeal it later over cost concerns.

12:50 p.m.: Success! The public beach at Treasure Island. It took two and a half hours on four buses to get there. But a wide sandy beach now beckoned, with volleyball players, kite fliers, and signs advising swimmers to "Shuffle Your Feet For Stingrays." Not to mention a nice fried grouper sandwich at a nearby beachfront restaurant, Sloppy Joe's.

As it stands, the proposed route does not have the easiest connections. It would go to downtown Tampa, but not to Tampa’s airport. It would go to Orlando’s airport, but not to downtown Orlando.

Orlando is planning to build a commuter rail system, but the current plans do not connect it to the proposed high-speed rail line. Tampa is debating a new light rail system, but construction could be years off.

In the short term, experts predict that up to a third of the train’s ridership would be for the 19-mile trip between the Orlando airport and Walt Disney World, which has agreed to donate land for a stop.

A recent visit to the Tomorrowland Transit Authority, a retro-futuristic people mover in the Magic Kingdom, shows the enduring pull of car culture in Florida: a sign at the station announces that it is presented by Alamo, the car rental company.

At the beach, two young tourists from Nova Scotia, Julia Acott, 11, left, and Gabrielle Bezanson, 12, were making sand angels. Then it was time to go back to Tampa. This time a taxi seemed like a good idea. The return trip took only 39 minutes. But the meter was $72, not counting tip. The upshot? If tourists take the high-speed train to Tampa, they may well want to rent cars to get around the Tampa region.

SOURCE:  http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2010/03/22/us/0322RAIL_index.html?ref=us

SOURCE:  http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/23/us/23train.html

SORT OF SAYS IT ALL DOESN'T IT?

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

...AND NOW TIME FOR A LITTLE POLK COUNTY REALITY CHECK...

SHALL WE POST PHOTOS OF THE STATION LOCATIONS FOR EVERY STOP? BECAUSE SOME ARE WORSE!

So you just walked 5 miles up an empty highway to the Polk County Rail Station, next stop OIA because you have to be at the Orena in time for the big game!

Your dazzled by the station location in the middle of I-4... and you look at the progressive state to the:

NORTH




SOUTH




EAST



AND WEST!

As your train lands out at OIA, you ponder the next move, getting into downtown... you glance out the window on final approach at the Orlando Metropolitan Area served by MICKEYS FLYING TRAIN!

There is just something SO JAMES DEAN about Florida High Speed Rail, better be, because your screwed!

OCKLAWAHA