San Fran. Blows Away Jax on Intermodal, Shipyard Project Comparisons

[tufsu1]

when I said Jax. wasn't SF, I was mainly referring to the TransBay terminal...and the fact that we don't have the transit split to do that....it is important to note that 10-15 years ago the TransBay neighborhood was terrible...and people complained that it was the wrong place to do the project (sound familiar?)

also...from an outsider's perspective the redevelopment of Candlestick Point is not much differenet than that of the Shipyards or Brooklyn....and while those projects are stalled, the SF project has been decades in the making

[stjr]

What will it take to progress our thinking to this type of level?  We have a ton of assets (Shipyards included) waiting to be taken advantage of and better utilized.

among other things:

an economy the size of SF Bay area
population the size of SF Bay area
income and education levels comparable w/ SF Bay area
mode split to transit similar to SF Bay area

I'm not saying we can't be thinking similarly...but to be honest, San Francisco is light years ahead of us in many regards...we need to figure out what works best for us in Jax.

sure...and just about every one of them is larger and more progressive (yes, even Ft. Worth) than Jax.

Tufsu, nothing personal, but I feel compelled to "pile on" here about your comments which match the excuses we get from our local public officials.    I and many others aren't buying these continuing strings of lame excuses.  While I believe you are well intended, I wonder if your apparent ties to transportation agencies and/or engineers are leading you to parallel their obtuse thinking further supporting the preconceptions many of us share about why we are not progressing.  

Human beings in Jax are looking for the same basic things that humans in nearly every modern civilization look for .  Small town or big city, there are basic underlying themes that work everywhere. (FYI, Ford is transitioning now to a basic worldwide line of cars concluding that consumers worldwide want the same core features everywhere regardless of culture.) Jax continues to ignore them to its own detriment.

We will get what we aspire, inspire, and perspire to get.  There are no limitations unless we self impose them.  Number one is having a creative master vision that incorporates best practices for public spaces and urban development.  That costs very little.

Once we have the master vision, it can be phased in over time through the consistent application of public and private investments and policies that SUPPORT the vision.  And, it's about the QUALITY, not the QUANTITY!  If we just took a seed of one to four city blocks and made something worthwhile from it, and faithfully added to that at every ongoing opportunity, we would already be well on our way.

How many millions have we spent rebuilding our streets and parks with the fad scheme of the day, poorly planning and integrating long term public facilities (transportation center, convention center, courthouse, jail, etc.), supporting haphazard and ill conceived developments, chasing quick fixes, doing things half way on the cheap causing them to fail before they succeed, pursuing transient dreams (like the Super Bowl) rather than permanent improvements to our quality of life, avoiding less sexy infrastructure improvements (e.g. chasing the worthless but more sexy $ky-high-way over street cars, commuter rail, or even just a better bus system), not weaving together a holistic living plan for our urban area, etc.?

One reason I now think we fail to vision well is due to the structure of our downtown planning process.  Letting Downtown get whipsawed by competing interests of a mayor, city council, JEDC, JTA, FDOT, School Board, JSO, Tourist Bureau, DVI, JEA, TPO, and all the other alphabet players in town is just not working.

We need a focused, imaginative, well connected, and highly skilled urban district CZAR that can work for years or decades seeing through an interdisciplinary, multi-dimensional, long term, best practices urban redevelopment plan integrating the interests of all players, constituents, and transients. (Perhaps this should be on the agenda of the Charter Revision Commission.)

Ultimately, the process needs to deliver an end result far greater than the parts that go into it.

[thelakelander]

tufsu1, I was referring to "vision" in general or being able to plan and implement specific projects that are well integrated with others to lead to a unified long term goal.  For the longest, we have spent just as much money as anywhere else on various things, but we can't create any synergy from those investments because we have not embraced the concepts of connectivity, clustering and sticking with a long term goal.  Imo, this is one of the major issues, that many of our peers have figured out, that we need to overcome locally.  

[tufsu1]

Human beings in Jax are looking for the same basic things that humans in nearly every modern civilization look for .  Small town or big city, there are basic underlying themes that work everywhere. (FYI, Ford is transitioning now to a basic worldwide line of cars concluding that consumers worldwide want the same core features everywhere regardless of culture.) Jax continues to ignore them to its own detriment.

I am well aware of Ford's plans as I am contemplating a 2011 Fiesta (my first car was a Fiesta)...but having owned a small upscale European hatchback that didn't sell well in the US, I'm not sure we are ready to share in the world's love of hatchbacks....I hope I'm wrong!

To get back on thread, I do agree that Jax. continues to lag behind and it bothers me...but I think this is partially because many people in Jax. are not exactly "worldly" and don't see what we're missing....this is not just leadership, but possibly a majority of the people in this non-progressive region.

[stjr]

Tufsu, I think as more people move to Jax from other areas of the country and the world  - and with the internet showing all of us rather easily what others are getting done elsewhere - we are reaching the point where even our most "non-progressive" people are expecting more and more.

I would like to propose that our "leadership" may actually be lagging (when, it should be LEADING) in progressiveness behind much of the citizens it serves which might explain the discontent with the status quo so many seem to have.  In the end, nothing will change if we don't do something different in the future over what has failed us in the past.

[Ocklawaha]

when I said Jax. wasn't SF, I was mainly referring to the TransBay terminal...and the fact that we don't have the transit split to do that....it is important to note that 10-15 years ago the TransBay neighborhood was terrible...and people complained that it was the wrong place to do the project (sound familiar?)

also...from an outsider's perspective the redevelopment of Candlestick Point is not much different than that of the Shipyards or Brooklyn....and while those projects are stalled, the SF project has been decades in the making

We are certainly NOT San Francisco, but then having traveled all over the globe, who is?  There is only one and San Francisco is it, no mistaking that city for anyone, anywhere, anything or anyhow else.

You are right about transit mix, we have about 27,000 riders a day on 60 odd bus routes in and around Jacksonville. This makes us Florida's 3Rd largest transit agency behind MIAMI-DADE and BROWARD, with quite a distance between us and the "also ran" pack of cities, which include TAMPA, ORLANDO, ST. PETE, WEST PALM BEACH, SARASOTA, FORT MYERS, TALLAHASSEE, PENSACOLA etc...  The Skyway accounts for about 5% of our total daily transit ridership.  As a whole, transit represents less then 5% of all trips taken in Jacksonville, which considering our size, is a deplorable figure.

VISION?

Building a Transportation "RANCH" around a useless Convention Center is far worse then just closing the Convention Center, building a proper COMPACT transportation facility, THEN revisiting the Convention Center in a more central location. For a Convention Center to function properly, we need a Transit Mix running to it's doors, and the building itself should be located in the heartbeat of the City.

MEANWHILE:

If we completed the Skyway to actual destinations rather then sundry and useless stops in the middle of ZERO connectivity, we might actually get a pulse.  A trip from 5-Point or San Marco to SHAND'S should be completely possible on the monorail. So should a trip from Jacksonville Terminal to the A. P. Randolph entertainment area. This should represent our own high density core system that flies above the streets. Properly built and fed by outlaying BRT and Transit Buses, the Skyway should be on target for 15% of all transit trips, or a little over 4,000 daily. These would probably be largely TRANSFERS another concept foreign to our city since the 1960's.

Streetcars or Ultra Light Rail, should tie that Transit Center to every eclectic neighborhood in the urban core. Targets should include the historical "trolley neighborhoods" as well as places such as Gateway Mall, which can be reached at fairly high speed along the former F&J Railroad line from Arlington Expressway (at Union Warehouse) north and northwest to Norwood at Gateway. The streetcars or ULR would have a much longer reach then the Skyway, touching such diverse places as ORTEGA, FAIRFAX, DURKEEVILLE, BROOKLYN, AVONDALE, MURRAY HILL, RIVERSIDE, DOWNTOWN, SPRINGFIELD, FAIRFIELD, EAST SIDE, GATEWAY, NORWOOD etc... In street running downtown would save money and time, and private right of way or reserved lanes in the outlaying area's would increase speeds. Many traditional streetcars lines (including some in Jacksonville) were built alongside the regular railroads which should give us food for thought. Streetcars should take another 15% of the total ridership.

Commuter Rail, needs to be considered YESTERDAY! It is generally cheaper to build then most LRT, Skyway, Streetcar, or BRT, and it has the capacity to carry far more passengers per trip. The drawback to total dependency on CR is LIMITED TRIPS, and STATIONS MUCH FEWER and FURTHER APART. But there is no reason why it shouldn't be expected to carry about 10% of the daily passenger count.

Bus, Motor Coach, Express Bus, BRT, would make up the larger balance of the system accounting for 60% of all passenger trips. Utilization would be superior to today's system, and headways (spacing between buses) could close to less then half of today's typical 45 minutes to a more reasonable 20 minutes. Buses that currently run from the burbs all the way into a system of downtown loops, would be able to circulate through their respective territories and drop those passengers at a ACROSS-PLATFORM-TRANSFER stop, for Streetcar, Skyway, or Commuter Rail.

Trolley Bus, Because Trolley Buses have a MUCH HIGHER ridership wherever they are used, we should add these vehicles to various trunk routes to the Beaches, Arlington, San Jose, as well as the downtown loops currently operated by PCT's.  Electric Transit in some form will be the wave of the future, and one only need visit any one of a number of World cities to see this in action, it's time we get with the program. For the purpose of this post I'll include the Trolley Buses in that 60% of all trips, made by bus.

A system like this would give us reach, and balance, no longer could we be held hostage to a breakdown of a single system.  Putting 30% of our riders in electric rail or monorail vehicles and as many as another 30% in electric buses, would give us diverse power generation opportunities in the event of another major fuel crisis. While other cities ground to a halt, Jacksonville and San Francisco could downshift and chug right along with 60% +/- of all of our transit trips UNTOUCHED.






JUST DO IT!

OCKLAWAHA

Gas pump - Oklahoma
Wind Farm - Denmark
All other photos - FLORIDA

[mtraininjax]

On the way to the Denver airport, I saw they had a great solar farm to help power the airport. What do we have? A hotel, a pond, and something resembling art. Denver did have a Bronco in blue paint, do we have a Jaguar anywhere along airport road, I cannot remember either yes or no?

[Ocklawaha]

On the way to the Denver airport, I saw they had a great solar farm to help power the airport. What do we have? A hotel, a pond, and something resembling art. Denver did have a Bronco in blue paint, do we have a Jaguar anywhere along airport road, I cannot remember either yes or no?

Besides having an "Airport FREEway connector," that resembles Philips Highway, we have to have what is the most outdated, confusing, dangerous and ugliest airport interchange in all of the nation.

"Turn Right!
Turn!
Oh, not that Right!
The Next Right!
(guy behind lock brakes as the driver swerves back into the lane)
Speed up, he damn near hit us!
Next Right over the bridge!
Quick!
Oh Shit!
20 MPH!
Tight Curve!
Where's the airport?
PINE TREES!
OH SHIT!@#%!$~!$~!
Call the cops.
Cop's hell, Call the forest service.
Do they got bears in Florida?
I donno Louie, I donno!"

OCKLAWAHA

[Dog Walker]

.but having owned a small upscale European hatchback that didn't sell well in the US, I'm not sure we are ready to share in the world's love of hatchbacks....I hope I'm wrong!

Oh my, a Saab driver.  A Saab hatchback is the car of choice of engineers, planners and computer techs!  If female, then a Saab convertible.  

[north miami]

Tufsu, I think as more people move to Jax from other areas of the country and the world  -.............. - we are reaching the point where even our most "non-progressive" people are expecting more and more.

Some of us in the 'environmental/conservation community recognized this possibility for Northeast Florida.
Also aware of the many who have moved away  or decided against immigration in the first place.That is an interesting dynamic.

As for me,I have waited around long enough,and am inclined towards Northern California.

[tufsu1]

.but having owned a small upscale European hatchback that didn't sell well in the US, I'm not sure we are ready to share in the world's love of hatchbacks....I hope I'm wrong!

Oh my, a Saab driver.  A Saab hatchback is the car of choice of engineers, planners and computer techs!  If female, then a Saab convertible.   

nope...it was the Mercedes C230K....now I have an Audi A3 hatchback, but at least people in the U.S. seem to be buying that

[Ocklawaha]

Volkswagen Micro-Bus... 

FOREVER!

OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

Time to freshen up articles like the one posted to start this thread.  Mayoral candidates need to take notice and offer their visions on such matters.

[I-10east]

I guess that "freshen up" is a synonym for "beat a dead horse".

[ChriswUfGator]

What will it take to progress our thinking to this type of level?  We have a ton of assets (Shipyards included) waiting to be taken advantage of and better utilized.

among other things:

an economy the size of SF Bay area
population the size of SF Bay area
income and education levels comparable w/ SF Bay area
mode split to transit similar to SF Bay area

Tufsu, take a step back in time. What this project is accomplishing, downtown Jacksonville already was in the 1940s. We didn't want any of that ugly stuff in our "City Beautiful" and demolished it.