How much is Duval County's school system driving sprawl?

[Clem1029]

Nail hits head.  The teachers are not getting it done... and who can blame them.  Those children need to be removed from their classroom so the remaining 17 children can get an education.

In some of these schools it will be more like removing 10 of the 20 students.  The larger societal issue is why are these kids having so much trouble concentrating?

Isn't this simultaneously one of the better and more cynical arguments for a voucher system? If in a 25 student classroom, 20 are holding up the progress, shouldn't the 5 that want to learn be given a chance to do so?

Remove the distractors.  Separate boys and girls, strict uniforms, cellphones banned from school, strict code of conduct (enforced), Strict standards of progress (enforced)

Sadly... none of these things will happen in public schools and I forcast more of the same results.  Private schools implement many if not all of the above and provide a better education.

I agree with you 100%, but if there's one thing I can never figure out is how "enforcement" should look. At private schools, expulsion is the ultimate enforcement. What is it for public schools? Out of school suspensions just give the kids basically what they want, in school suspensions are often a waste of time and resources (along with not giving the kids a corrective lesson)..maybe forced service (say, 12 hour shifts with the school janitorial staff)? What stick is big enough for the kids that can be used for enforcement?

[simms3]

Remove the distractors.  Separate boys and girls, strict uniforms, cellphones banned from school, strict code of conduct (enforced), Strict standards of progress (enforced)

Sadly... none of these things will happen in public schools and I forcast more of the same results.  Private schools implement many if not all of the above and provide a better education.

Stephen makes many good points, not all of which I agree (remove libraries?...not enough kids read words on pages and a Kindle can't substitute for that).  I think some of which he speaks is being implemented already.  However, when it comes down to it, I think strict enforcement like Bridgetroll points out can make the quickest, largest impact.  At first I thought separating boys and girls was a little extreme, but I remember my dad talking about it when he was in high school.  He went to an all male high school, and in his senior year they integrated girls.  He always joked everyone went from having an A-B average to a C-D average.  A lot of schools my friends went to are still either all male or all female to this day, and these are the best high schools in the country.  It's not like guys and girls never get to see each other.  None of that will ever be enforced, though.  Public schools are subject to politics, political correctness, etc.

And everyone else seems right, as well, being that there are always kids in these schools who want to succeed, but there sure are a lot of "distracted" kids, if we're going to be that nice.  I have a friend who went to Lee and ended up at Emory, but I don't think he was friends with many kids at his high school, LoL.  The Lee or the Wolfson cafeteria was always a place our mothers either took us to or threatened to take us to, to show us that if we screwed up at the schools they sent us, we would end there.

[BridgeTroll]

The evidence is very clear that separating boys and girls makes a big difference.  They BOTH learn better...especially the girls.  Uniforms puts EVERYONE in the same social class... we all know appearances are everything to teens.  It is understood that public schools must provide an education... even to those who apparently do not want it or are incapable of proper behavior.  Parents(of those kids) will protest, certain educators will howl... but those kids need to be segregated from those who know how to behave.  If 10% is causing the other 90% to suffer they must be removed.  Call it what you want... detention hall, study hall... I don't care. 

Get em away from the motivated kids.  This is essentially what is happening with the private school movement.  MY kid wants to learn... MY kid behaves(and if not let me know as I will fix it), I am an involved parent... and I do not want that interrupted by misbehaved children and teachers who must be babysitters.

[JeffreyS]

Mixed results with uniforms( I do support them ). Separating the boys and girls some years and some classes is the best thing IMO. Take some pressure off and helps with focus no doubt.

[Captain Zissou]

I think increasing teacher salaries and giving them more autonomy to discipline and direct their classes would greatly improve schools.  I went to Episcopal as well, and there was often swift justice for anyone who misbehaved on a serious level.  Saturday school was given out freely, which consisted of cleaning the campus for 3 hours, 2 hours of study hall, and 1 hour of physical activity (plyometrics with the dean, for starters).  

The only thing with strong punishment, it doesn't work if the parents aren't then following up with their own discipline.  If the kid doesn't then lose television, internet, cell phone, or freedom, it just builds resentment for the teacher without changing the kid's behavior.  I'd be fine with a day of labor if that was all I had to do.  Instead, it would be a day's hard labor and then no internet for 2 weeks.  That's how you change behavior, by having the parents uphold and reinforce the punishment administered by the school.  Instead, we have parents who don't care, or oppose the school and fight with the teacher because they can't accept that their kid is a problem.

It may not be a quick fix, but increasing teacher salary will improve the application pool.  I have always thought that teachers and police officers need a raise.  Enforcing the law and teaching our youth are two of the most important things in our society, and deserve the best possible people for the job.  They are poorly compensated (IMO) therefore are poorly staffed.  

In response to the initial post, I can't say anything definitive, but I do know many couples who have or are planning to move to St Johns county when they have children for the sole purpose of being near better schools.  I can also give multiple examples of people who moved into the district for Hendricks Elementary for the same reason.  A good school can turn around a neighborhood, but the teachers are only a small component of what makes a good school.  I know many great teachers at what would be considered terrible schools.

[Wacca Pilatka]

Also, it occured to me that our city has clearly invested a significant amount of time and money (granted in partnership with the team owners) to get people in the seats at Jaguars home games.  Guess what - it worked!  No blackouts.  What if they put the same energy into getting families to commit to the public school system (partnered with the school board)?  Which of these would have a greater impact on the quality of life in Jacksonville?

For what it's worth, the Weavers seem to be heavily invested in early childhood education and promoting an improved public school system in Jacksonville.  This has been a terrific discussion thread, incidentally.

[simms3]

Second Captain Zissou.  Also, it is ironic that the people in charge of Duval Public Schools make a large chunk of change for basically leading a failed system.  If we increase teachers' pay, can we then decrease administrators pay?  Also, if Episcopal does not pay its own teachers very well, how does it get so many good teachers?  Stephen, these teachers do not live on campus.  2 or 3 live nearby, but they commute in and live with their families like the rest of us.

Also, for the poster worried about taking kid to BJS or BK, you need to consider a carpool.  It's cheap, easy, and fun, and it takes a load off of your back.  At school by 7 a.m.?  Morning sports practices are usually around 5 or 6 and the occasional presentation requires one to be at school by maybe 7:30, but 7?  The school will be dark and empty!  I think most schools start around 8 or even as late as 8:30 unless BJS is that different.  Most students at BJS are from the westside.  I think BK was outgrown, and the Catholic schools wanted one for the westside and one for the southside.

Also, maybe it's just my observations, but from mothers volunteering at Ortega Elementary, from philanthropists throughout our city like the Weavers (even the Peytons), from Teach for America (I know someone who does that in Jax), from all the volunteers at places like The Bridge in Springfield, etc, it seems like white people who don't even send their kids to these schools care more about these schools than the inner city parents who send their kids there.  That's an irony that has to be part of the problem.

Also, I just want to reiterate a point.  If you had an unexcused absence at a school like Episcopal (and attendance was strictly kept at every class...5 minutes late was considered an absence), you were facing at minimum the Saturday school that Captain Zissou referred to.  I had friends that went to Stanton that weren't in IB, and they skipped so much class to go to someone's family farm to drink it wasn't funny.  They never got in trouble!  Don't we have truency laws??  I guess they aren't enforced!

[BridgeTroll]

Aftersuffering through years of substandard performance, child complaints of indifferent teachers and rowdy students... we committed to Bishop Snyder HS.  And I mean commit.  You don't just "pay tuition" and send em to school.  Appearance, clothing, code of conduct, grades, attendance, sports is the responsibility of teachers, staff, students and most importantly... parents.  Misbehavior was not tolerated... at all.  Punishment/remedial action was swift and generally unpleasant.  My child got Saturday detention (gum chewing in class) one time in four years... That one time was all that was needed.

Again... none of this will happen in our public schools.  Too many parents willing to argue with the teacher or principle or even the school board that uniforms are too confining or gum chewing is nothing to get excited about not to mention tardiness, absenteeism, smart mouth, and violence.

My children have moved past this disfunctional school system, and am glad I am not having to make those choices again.  This time I would not waste my child's time in public grade schools and middle schools.

[Singejoufflue]

It seems we all agree behavioral issues are a key issue with education.  Many of the successful models in recent years have targeted the behavorial issues as being the first issue to overcome and use student and parent committments to enforce standards (like KIPP) of both behavior and academic achievment.  So with that identified, what about the curriculum?  For my part, I can only speak to AP/IB and private catholic curriculae, and both produce students who are, at minimum, college-ready.  This is my concern when comparing the US to other countries.  How does the "standard" curriculum compare? Are these foreign countries teaching to standardized tests?  Why don't we only offer college-prep curriculum to all students, and well, if you get a D, then too bad?

[tufsu1]

Stephen...you went to 4 high schools....was that because of constant busing/redistricting boundary changes...if so, how did it effect your education and others who lived near you?

[tufsu1]

thanks....the reason I asked is because often redistricting has negative impacts on kids...an issue private schools don't deal with.

[dougskiles]

I think the magnet school program is an amazing leap forward, and it should be supported.

I am firm believer as well and am proud of what our public system has accomplished in these schools.  There have been a few posters expressing disapproval of the magnet schools and I know that not all of the school board members favor the system either.  I am curious to know why.

Most magnet schools are located in urban neighborhoods and the children in those neighborhoods have the top priority for acceptance (technically second behind active military but that is a very low percentage).  It is a shame that more of them do not attend.

Some of the neighborhood kids do take advantage of the opportunity and that is why the results that I posted earlier for those schools show such a high percentage of free & reduced lunch students and minorities compared to suburban schools - and have achieved better results.

The one-size-fits-all concept just doesn't work.  Not for the gifted kids and not for the kids who are less talented (or less interested) in academics.  And not for the kids in between.  Thankfully, the COJ P&DD is working to change the one-size-fits-all issue in the realm of zoning and land use.  How nice would it be to see something smiilar in the public school system? 

I'm hoping that someone will chime in soon and explain to us how the state is making that impossible by enforcing one-size-fits-all standards. I don't yet know enough about the system to explain why that is so - however - I have heard many people make reference to it.

[Clem1029]

I am firm believer as well and am proud of what our public system has accomplished in these schools.  There have been a few posters expressing disapproval of the magnet schools and I know that not all of the school board members favor the system either.  I am curious to know why.

From arguments I've heard, there are two sides of opposition to magnets in general. One is the "my kid's future depends on a lottery" position - that due to social restraints and their local school, the only hope for a given child to a solid education is to get into a magnet, because their local school will fail them. For a non-insignificant portion of the population, it turns what should be a right to anyone that wants it (a solid education) into a game of chance.

The other side of the argument is that by drawing away all of the best/most talented students from their local schools, the "brain drain" serves to bring the whole school down - smart kids aren't there to participate in peer tutoring or other classroom interaction to elevate their fellow students, or in the case of DA, draw away from local success in music/drama/arts.

I'm not sure how much water these positions hold, but these are two of the most common magnet objections.

[thelakelander]

My issue with magnet schools revolves around urban planning, neighborhood stablization and personal experience.  My experience come from a different school system in Central Florida.  Things may be different in Duval but the magnet schools where I grew up (Polk County) were originally neighborhood schools.  The kids in the minority neighorhood I grew up in were then bused all around town to other schools to so all schools would be properly desegregated.  I remember my little brother not getting into the neighborhood magnet and having to take an hour long bus ride to another city to help balance out its numbers in 6th grade.

Needless to say, my old neighborhood was economically depressed then and it still is (I've been out of high school for 15 years now).  I believe a strong "neighborhood" school is needed in every walkable neighborhood if the goal for that community to be vibrant.  A family with the economic means is not going to invest in the redevelopment of a community if their children are put through the same situation as the kids in my childhood neighborhood.  

From my knowledge of magnet schools, it seems like they hurt inner city neighborhood revitalization.  To me, it appears that the top talent is drained from other schools and neighborhoods, so you end up with a few great schools and ton of crummy ones.

[tufsu1]

I generally feel that the Duval magnet schools are a good thing....that said, they have created a drain on the non-magnet schools by removing some of the most gifted students.

Perhaps we should consider more magnet programs (like Internatiocal studies or science) within regular schools.