How much is Duval County's school system driving sprawl?

[dougskiles]

Easy enough...

                    Reading   Math   Writing   Science     % Free & Reduced Lunch    % Minority
Paxson             75         96        93          85                      19                           57
Stanton            84         96        99          93                      13                           47
Bartram             70        91        95          58                        3                             6
Creekside           72        93        87          60                        4                             6

BTW all of this is available at:

http://schoolgrades.fldoe.org/

It could be said that magnet schools take kids away from the neighborhood schools - and it can also be said that magnet schools take even more kids away from the private schools/St Johns County schools.  But in terms of the original post question, I don't believe that magnet schools are encouraging sprawl.  Quite the opposite as most magnet schools are located in the urban core.

[thelakelander]

I think its the other way around.  I believe the current school situation is a result of sprawl, not the cause.  On one end, there may be areas within the school system we can improve but ultimately the surrounding environment (cultural, ecomonic, etc.) of many of our struggling schools must improve if we really want to solve this problem on a large scale.

[Steve_Lovett]

1) Most private schools are actually affordable.  Tuition is usually in the range of $3-8K.

2) The cost to send a kid to public school is on average far more than to send a kid to private school.  The average to send a kid to a public school grades 6-12 in NJ is just under $15K.  A voucher of half of that would get a kid in many many many decent private schools.  I don't know what the costs to send a kid to public school are in FL, but I know that teachers at Bolles and Episcopal have far superior backgrounds than teachers at public schools and make significantly less ($30-45K).

3) Government in education is the problem.  I think we agree on that.  The system is so flawed, why would any taxpayer want to throw MORE money at it.  Until the system is fixed, taxpayers will be moving to less bureaucratic school districts in the suburbs, homeschooling, or sending their kids to private schools.

4) Also agree: many parents don't seem to give a damn.  In voucher programs that have worked before (DC comes to mind), there were still parents who didn't even give the system a try.  Gee mom, thanks for caring about me.  These parents aren't even taxpayers.  They have no skin in the game.

I think you should re-examine your facts.  The comparisons of Paxon/Stanton/Mandarin/Bartram Trail/Creekside are all high school comparisons.  Private school tuition for Episcopal & Bolles (middle & high school) works out to be around $20k/year, including tuition ($18.5k+/-), books, various activity fees, lunches, etc.  More if you donate to the school's scholarship/endowment fund.  Some private high schools and middle schools are less expensive, but you'd be hard pressed to find much for less than $10-14k.  Private elementary schools such as Bolles, Riverside Presbyterian Day School, Jacksonville Country Day, San Jose or Beaches Episcopal are in the $7.5-10k range. 

The irony is that "until the system is fixed" there's an unwillingness to invest.  One could argue that until an appropriate investment in education is made, the system CAN'T be fixed.  As I'm sure you know, Florida is 49th or 50th in its investment in public education - and Jacksonville/Duval County is near the bottom of all of the state's school districts. 

[dougskiles]

I think its the other way around.  I believe the current school situation is a result of sprawl, not the cause.  On one end, there may be areas within the school system we can improve but ultimately the surrounding environment (cultural, ecomonic, etc.) of many of our struggling schools must improve if we really want to solve this problem on a large scale.

Maybe - but I have heard of more people saying that they are moving to St Johns County because they wanted better schools than any other reason.  Maybe initially the schools deteriorated because of sprawl, but in our current situation people are moving out because the schools are perceived to be better.

[thelakelander]

You can't build a new school without the roads, neighborhoods and subdivisions being created first.  The school situation is one of many that are a result of suburban sprawl.  Others (people who don't have school aged kids) include, affordable newer housing, better retail, parks, accessibility, entertainment and jobs. 

The problem has grown to the point that on the surface it seems that all of these items are the drivers but they really are really the result.  To ultimately solve the problem, we're going to have to discover a way to slow down the cause.  Since most American communities are facing the same issues I wonder how places growing inner cities like Charlotte, Orlando, Miami and Houston are dealing with their public school situation?  If we look hard enough, there should be both good and bad examples (I guess we're a bad example) to follow/avoid.

[Singejoufflue]

I've been reading through this thread but haven't had a chance to respond, so sorry for the following disconnected thoughts...

I'd like to know where we, too, can find the statistics Simms is referencing regarding teacher pay, student enrollment demographics, etc.  As I have read through, so much read like blanket generalities with no data. 

It is a misnomer of the worst sort to believe that teachers (Chicago or otherwise) work only from bell to bell.  Most teachers have one planning period per day and are required, in order to meet the demands of the curriculum, to take the work home.  Routinely (I have many very good friends who teach for CPS, one who teaches for a private school in DC and a couple here in Duval) these folks are up until late hours grading papers, creating exams, etc.  So, no, teachers don't work 30 hours a week for these alleged salaries.  And for the record, a sizable number of teachers in Chicago take part time jobs in the summer to offset the poor pay.  Now suburban Chicago teachers on the other hand...Naperville has one of the highest rates of pay and I'm surprised more retirement aged teachers aren't being offed to get those coveted positions.  But, when you look at how the system is financed with property taxes, Naperville can afford to pay those salaries.  But there too, teachers make up extra pay by being involved in activities like sports, etc.

It is not the job of the school system to play Mother, Father, Counselor, Judge, Jury and Executioner.  Teachers should have to teach and that is all.  Disruption should be dealt with accordingly and with the involvement of the parents.  Funding should not be based on school performance in the disciplinary sense.  The only monies that should flux from school to school is the amount for free/reduced lunches.  And that is something that should be considered a third rail issue (IMO). I like it old school: Uniforms for all, sit down, shut up and do as your told.  No back talk, no sass, no texting, no note passing.  Crack the book and nose to the grindstone. You are there to learn and everything else takes a back seat. 

As for magnet schools...Well, I was the product of both James Weldon Johnson and Stanton and my sister went to JWJ and then Douglas Anderson.  I couldn't imagine either of us having had a better education for free or otherwise.  I competed against the private school students a couple times a year and was fortunate my education didn't include an overly-developed sense of entitlement.  To be sure, our day was longer than the Sandalwood kids, but when we waited there in the morning and girls were fighting and cops were patrolling, or we took Driver's Ed over the summer and it was like a maximum security prison with slits for windows, my sister and I sang the praises of our commutes.  (I will say, completely unrelated to education, I believe it was this acclimation to commuting via bus that makes me more tolerant of public transit.) Within every public (non-magnet) school is a core group of students who are driven (with or without parental support) and go on to high-achieving adult lives.  They take advantage of the higher level classes.  Why not just flat out not offer "regular" courses and stop playing to the lowest common denominator?  Where are the technical schools where students who weren't academically minded went to learn how to fix a car or weld or some such?  Why is it reasonable or correct to assume that every person is going to be capable of achieving a seemingly arbitrary metric identified by Iowa in the 80s?  It's OK if my mechanic can't expound on the growth of Communism in the early 20th century as long as he can fix my radiator.

Off soap box...

Lake, I agree with you on the cause.  The density fell in the inner-city schools and as growth has continued further south to St. Johns, the suburban schools have fallen.  But now, with the gentrification of Springfield and further influx of young money to Riverside and San Marco, I hope these people are involving themselves in their community schools as well.

[dougskiles]

Since most American communities are facing the same issues I wonder how places growing inner cities like Charlotte, Orlando, Miami and Houston are dealing with their public school situation?  If we look hard enough, there should be both good and bad examples (I guess we're a bad example) to follow/avoid.

I hear that some (and maybe all) of the mayoral candidates have policy groups to study these issues.  Perhaps Metro Jacksonville can provide them with some meaningful examples.  Is that something that you would do yourself Lakelander, or do you recruit a team to do some research?  If so, I'm happy to help.

[simms3]

Steve_Lovett,

I think you are being disingenuous to suggest that most private schools have comparable tuitions to Bolles and Episcopal and their feeder schools.  Even for non-Catholics at BK or BS tuition is about $9K.  I looked at a few schools I had heard of that I thought would have reasonable tuitions.  Trinity Christian, University Christian, Mandarin Christian, and I’m sure there are plenty of others.  I haven’t been in high school for a while, but I know that there are even some Jewish schools, a developing Islamic school, and secular schools.  You can do the tuition research yourself, but you won’t find any tuitions at these schools above $10K, and in many cases above $8K.  St. Johns Country Day is significantly less than Bolles or Episcopal and arguably has the best college matriculation in town.  I think if you look at some numbers below, you will find that even a voucher of $7,500 given to parents to choose where to put their kids could save us taxpayer dollars (given what it costs to educate kids in public schools) and produce better results.

Regarding my comments about Chicago and New Jersey schools, I went straight from memory, but I found my sources.  First let me clarify what they said since I have my sources in front of me.

Thornton Township District is a South Side Chicago school district.  The average teacher there was earning $83,000 a year with almost 26% earning over $100,000 a year in 2005.  Chicago Public Schools had a day that ended at 1:30 until 2003, when the CTU negotiated to add 15 minutes of teaching time in exchange for a reduction of 7 days from the calendar.  This was a 5 hour net gain.  Chicago Public Schools spends an average of $10,550 per pupil (can’t gather if that is grades 9-12 or k-12).

For working 6 hours a day, 9 months of the year, a 22 year old fresh out of college teacher in Chicago will earn $43,702 + $3,059 in pension contributions.  If he spends his summers at the beach and works 4 more school years, he will be making $57,333 + $3,992 in pension contributions in 2012.  If he chooses to work during the summer, he will be on a “fast track” salary program and will be making 6 figures in no time.

What’s the student performance like?  It is estimated that only 6% of entering freshman will earn a college degree by age 25.

Sources

1) Teachers’ compensation for 2005 in Thornton Township District (Illinois School District 205) was compiled by Illinois Loop (www.IllinoisLoop.org/salary)

2) Chicago Public Schools website, http://www.cps.k12.il.us/AtAGlance.html

3) Jo Napolitano, “Election Dispute Leads to Impasse for Teachers’ Union,”  New York Times, July 2, 2004

4) Based on 38.6-week schedules for 2008-2009 and 2012-2013 school years.  CTU Teacher Salary Schedules are available at http://www.ctunet.com/contract_information/documents/new_07-12_teacher_salaries.pdf

5) Lori Olszewski, “City graduation rate disputed,” Chicago Tribune, February 3, 2005

I couldn’t find my original source for the New Jersey statistics, but I found a new one.  Here is a recap:

The average spending per pupil in the U.S. in 2006 was $9,138.  The average spending per pupil in New Jersey in 2006 was $14,630.  According to the article, Germany spends an average of $7,700 per pupil, and we all know they outscore us in reading, writing, and math.  The apparent big difference is that New Jersey has 600 individual school districts, and every superintendent makes around $200,000 and has a secretarial staff.

Source
http://examiner.gmnews.com/news/2010-04-15/Letters/NJ_schools_spend_too_much_per_pupil.html

[Singejoufflue]

Just to clarify, Thornton Township is NOT in CPS domain, so their salary is irrelevant to a CPS argument.  A 22-yr old fresh out of college doesn't get a full time job in CPS unless they know someone.  They are subbing if they are lucky.  And again, a teaching position is a salaried position, so if you have to work until 10pm to get the job done, you aren't getting time and a half in that next check.  I don't believe you have lived in Chicago, and as someone who has, after state and federal taxes, benefits, etc., that 44K isn't scratch when you are paying rent, outrageous gas bills and student loans and dealing with rampant student violence.  But enough about Chicago.

Realistically, I have a daughter in catholic middle school and the budget process for BK is underway, we need to have just under 10 grand per year to cover tuition, registration, uniforms, offerings, trips, etc.  The other side of private schools that seems to be missed is unlike with a public school, local or magnet, transportation is non-existent.  There are 2 private catholic high schools, BK and Bishop John Snyder (way out in WBF).  Who pays to get the kids out there?  The parents do.  So, you have to get your kid to school at 7am, which in the case of BJS you have to leave at 6am, so your kid is getting up at 5am, all of which so you can be to work by 8am, which means you now have to pay "extended day" fees.  And that doesn't include sports or activities! These totals start creeping up when you are actually involved in the system and not just standing at a distance. 

No one is arguing that the "cost" of the education is so inflated here in the states as to be laughable.  We have more than enough money going into the system, however, the way the money is being spent is the issue.  What does Germany do differently (outside of spend less) than the States?  (I, too, will be researching this further, but it's a school night and I have to turn in...)

[BridgeTroll]

As I said, the main problem that I see...is how nobody wants to come out and say it...that the schools are out of control, because nobody wants to stand up to these arrogant parents of kids that are chronic behavioral issues. The district has a code of conduct and for the most part, it's ignored because they don't want to suspend these violators which would force the parent to do something and/or they don't want the kids home alone...as if that should be the schools problem.

You can't successfully teach because of the chronic behavior issues that constantly disrupt the class, and the teacher is blamed, not the out of control child or the parent.

What do we, as society, do? Stand up and force the districts to stop babying these kids, stop allowing them to disrupt the classrooms, force the districts to stand by their code of conduct...force the districts to hold the children and parents accountable.

Springfielder is 100% correct and until we as a society decide that this is intolerable the issue will not be resolved.  Teacher pay?  Someone already established that public school teachers make more than private.  The difference is enforcement in a code of conduct.  As a parent who had a child in both systems the difference is stark and it is real.  My child could see that most of the teachers time and effort was wastefully expended on 10% of the students.  Our current system seems to be sacrificing the education of the majority to cater to the indifference and misbehavior of the few.

[dougskiles]

Even though I send my kids to public schools, we have been relatively sheltered from the discipline issues that you speak of because we are fortunate to live in an area with an excellent neighborhood school (Hendricks Avenue Elementary) and also have a child at a magnet middle school (Landon).

I have, however, had the opportunity to work with kids through other organizations that have just blown my mind with how much effort it takes to keep their attention.  It is a serious dilemma in our society.  If we had 3 adults assigned to work with 15-20 kids, 1 of the adults (often times me) was assigned to specifically manage 1 or 2 of the most troubling kids.  I have no idea how the teachers at some of these schools pull it off when it is 1 versus 20.

The challenge I am issuing to all of us on this forum is not to solve the problem - but to find real examples of school districts in the US with similar problems who are making progress.  To tell us how they are doing it in Sweden does us no good.  Our society is much more diverse and has a completely different set of issues.

In the same way that MJ has made significant progress enlightening JTA and City Council about BRT vs Light Rail, let's make some progress with the Duval County School Board.

[thelakelander]

On the transportation side of things, MJ was lucky enough to have several participants and board members who's professional careers were directly tied to the topic at hand. To tackle the public schools issue, additional input is needed from discussion board members (this appears to now be taking place in this thread) who have direct connections and understanding of how the Duval County School Board actually operates.  

[BridgeTroll]

I have, however, had the opportunity to work with kids through other organizations that have just blown my mind with how much effort it takes to keep their attention.  It is a serious dilemma in our society.  If we had 3 adults assigned to work with 15-20 kids, 1 of the adults (often times me) was assigned to specifically manage 1 or 2 of the most troubling kids.  I have no idea how the teachers at some of these schools pull it off when it is 1 versus 20.

Nail hits head.  The teachers are not getting it done... and who can blame them.  Those children need to be removed from their classroom so the remaining 17 children can get an education.

[dougskiles]

Nail hits head.  The teachers are not getting it done... and who can blame them.  Those children need to be removed from their classroom so the remaining 17 children can get an education.

In some of these schools it will be more like removing 10 of the 20 students.  The larger societal issue is why are these kids having so much trouble concentrating?

I look forward to seeing examples of success.

[BridgeTroll]

Remove the distractors.  Separate boys and girls, strict uniforms, cellphones banned from school, strict code of conduct (enforced), Strict standards of progress (enforced)

Sadly... none of these things will happen in public schools and I forcast more of the same results.  Private schools implement many if not all of the above and provide a better education.