TECO Line Streetcar

[tufsu1]

On that particular day (there was a NHL game across the street and a Justin Bieber concert), $5 for all day access was a deal. 

Now we know why you were in Tampa 

[yapp1850]

the street car will never be useful  till it head north to  kennedy blvd,franklin street mall,Tampa Theatre, marion transit center.

[I-10east]

A streetcar line with only 800 riders a day is a joke; That's less than Jax's ASE! Particularly since TECO is catered to tourists! People can try to sugarcoat it if they want to. Maybe Jax is not as some say, "getting blown outta the water" but refusing to go into "shark infested waters" by making a mistake like this. You'd think that TECO had the overwhelming success like MARTA, MTA or something the way some are talking about it; I'm quite sure that people in Tampa don't think so highly of it. With the NIMBY problems, etc. even with an extension, TECO's overall success in the grand scheme of things is questionable at best. For the people who want streetcar here, go to the place where the people who actually ride public transportation in this city (ASE and bus), the Rosa Parks bus station DT and ask them if they want streetcar here; Something is telling me that ratio would not be in favor of bringing it here. The hard working blue collar people is who my money is on, not some hipster who loves trendy nightlife.   

[thelakelander]

Don't know about everyone but I'll spend $48 million on a transit mistake that stimulates a billion in property tax paying TOD within five years of its opening anyday.  We just dropped +$200 million on the I-95/I-10 interchange and its not going to bring in any type of economic revitalization to the surrounding neighborhoods it cuts in half.  So if I'm Jax, I'd look to get the transit side of the equation right and also seek to benefit from the economic impact of resulting TOD for the surrounding communities.  It's okay to have icing on the cake, imo.  Also, good transit has nothing to do with being trendy or a hipster.  This is all about economic power, quality of life and taking Jax to the next level.

[CS Foltz]

This is all about economic power, quality of life and taking Jax to the next level.

lake...........I concur! Infill and the like......for a dollar, six in return, tis a no brainer to me, but what do I know, just a lowly taxpayer!

[Ocklawaha]

Real shame you can't see the forest for the tree's I-10E. Those poor blue collar workers in Jacksonville that didn't get the streetcar 30 years ago have been paying for every nickle of this city's infrastructure improvements and all that goes along with it.  The same people in the 80+ cities that have gone back to streetcars have experienced what amounts to massive tax relief as the new development is now paying for their city's futures with it's tax money.

In the new Cincinnati Streetcar Study, a city in the same boat as us has realized that for every dollar they spend on their planned streetcar, they will get $14 in new PRIVATE construction. At that rate a $50 million dollar streetcar line in Jacksonville will net us $700,000,000 in new development.

Economic development

The construction of a a modern streetcar system in Cincinnati will be a vital investment in the urban core.  A streetcar will focus development along the route, connect the existing economic engines of the city, and bring thousands of new residents and jobs into Cincinnati.

Phase 1 of the streetcar system would cost $102 million, according to the HDR study.  This investment would increase the property values along the line by $379 million and enable $1.4 billion of new development to occur.

For each dollar invested, the city would reap approximately $14 in new economic activity.

Increased Commercial Development

The streetcar will increase the population downtown and encourage more people to come patronize downtown business.   The economic impact study estimates an additional $17 million in retail spending from the new residents alone.

More people living downtown translates into more retail opportunities downtown for those who live there and those coming in to visit.  Phase 1 of the streetcar system will lead to million of new dollars in retail activity and additional retail choices downtown.

HOW WOULD IT EFFECT A CITY WITH RAP - SMP - SPAR? ASK CINCINNATI...

A treasure like Over-the-Rhine exists nowhere else in the country.  Over-the-Rhine is the largest collection of Italianate Architecture in the United States and was named one of the 11 most endangered historic sites in America.  The streetcar can help save the wonderful structures and houses that remain in Over-the-Rhine by cutting down parking ratios, encouraging renovations of old buildings, and increasing home ownership levels.
By lessening the importance of the automobile and encouraging renovations and rehabilitations, Phase 1 of the streetcar system will help preserve Cincinnati’s most unique and historic neighborhood.

Housing

HDR's study estimates building Phase 1 of the streetcar system will lead to the development of 314 new residential units a year for the next ten years, bringing thousands of new residents into the urban core.

The streetcar will greatly increase the speed at which downtown development occurs.  The HDR study looks at long term development trends and the effects of the streetcar.  Without the streetcar, the number of residential units downtown is predicted to rise to 2000 units by 2039.  With the streetcar 2000 units will be reached in 2018, a full 21 years sooner.

Developers will make long term investment decisions based on a streetcar line that they wouldn't make on a bus line.  The streetcar is a permanent improvement that can’t be easily changed. Changing a bus route only requires a can of orange paint.

Downtown Cincinnati is undergoing a condo building boom, but too many of these projects appeal only to the high end market.  Currently parking is holding back building more affordable housing in the Central Business District.  Many Young Professionals, a demographic that has consistently embraced urban living, is too often priced out of condos downtown.

For more information on streetcar transit, visit the City of Cincinnati's Streetcar Transit FAQS

SOURCE:  http://www.cincystreetcar.com/economicdevelopment.html

Looking at Tampa's route, one wonders if they ever drew up a station-function based planning sheet...



OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

The Tampa route was designed for 2 purposes:

1. Revitalize the Channel District
2. Provide connection from Convention Center area to Ybor entertainment district

It has done both very well

[Doctor_K]

Don't know about everyone but I'll spend $48 million on a transit mistake that stimulates a billion in property tax paying TOD within five years of its opening any day.

Problem with that is, there are VERY few people out there (most on this site excluded, of course) who can equate the two a) by even bothering to try, or b) without getting lost in their own politics.

[I-10east]

I did a lil' research on rail style Transit Oriented Development. So basically the goal of an extreme TOD system is to create clusters of dense urban living, at the same time driving property values so high that it wipes out affordable housing; That's a "win win" for everybody. One thing about bus, you still have an transit option whether you live in a modest home on Moncrief Rd, or a dream house on St Johns Ave. Who the hell is (the astronomic raising of property values) is this benefiting besides home sellers & real estate companies? I'm not the 'fortunate one' or someone in real estate so why should I want rail in Jax?  It's not even a sure shot that property values will increase so highly if the conditions aren't right (various factors; ridership, economy, demand for expanding stations etc.) The conditions are definitely not right in Tampa right now.

[Ocklawaha]

The Tampa route was designed for 2 purposes:

1. Revitalize the Channel District
2. Provide connection from Convention Center area to Ybor entertainment district

It has done both very well

Maybe so TU, but the fact that they missed the citizens makes it no more useful than a tourist attraction. A loop through downtown and back out alongside Twiggs or another avenue to Union Station and back to Channelside would have at least connected where the people work, and the many new condos. Perhaps it was budget, or Florida bone-heads that have done without rail for so long not even Grandpappymos remembers how it works? Using that same criteria we could build ours from Fort Caroline to the Beach... sort of misses something.

I think the plan we have worked out and the COJ is proposing has a lot more balance as a transportation system.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

I-10, we're all entitled to our opinions and its your right to oppose the concept, but let's at least apply facts to the situation across the board.

There are several examples of fixed transit lines spurring affordable housing for transit dependent residents and making the distressed areas around them nicer places to live across the U.S.  You can visit this link to learn more about some of them. 

http://www.drcog.org/index.cfm?page=AffordableHousing

Also, buses don't disappear.  They are used to improve service along less traveled routes and serve as feeder lines for areas not adjacent to the major transit spine.  In the end, the goal is to develop a more efficient transportation network.  Not only in terms of usability but also cost effective financial utilization.

 

[Ocklawaha]

I did a lil' research on rail style Transit Oriented Development. So basically the goal of an extreme TOD system is to create clusters of dense urban living, at the same time driving property values so high that it wipes out affordable housing; That's a "win win" for everybody. One thing about bus, you still have an transit option whether you live in a modest home on Moncrief Rd, or a dream house on St Johns Ave. Who the hell is (the astronomic raising of property values) is this benefiting besides home sellers & real estate companies?  

So a developer that jumps in and builds unsellable million dollar condos, and goes broke, benefits real estate people? and what about development of restaurants, boutiques, pharmacy's, salons, etc... You really think only the rich will benefit from those? ...and there is the jobs created factor if your interested.

Also just what affordable housing is "wiped out" by a streetcar in the middle of the damn street? REALLY?

One thing you can bank on, there will be no significant development, job creation, or tourism created anywhere along the route with a bus.

OCKLAWAHA

[Doctor_K]

Also, buses don't disappear.  They are used to improve service along less traveled routes and serve as feeder lines for areas not adjacent to the major transit spine.  In the end, the goal is to develop a more efficient transportation network.  Not only in terms of usability but also cost effective financial utilization.

So to put it in Jax-relevant terms (and not to hijack the thread):

Utilize the existing rail 'spines' up Philips and run 'express' buses down Atlantic, Beach, JTB, and Baymeadows, and up Southside to tie into them?  

Same for US-17 in O.P./West Side with buses down Wells, Kingsley, Blanding, and out 103rd?

Or is all that just grossly over-simplified?

[thelakelander]

^That's about as simple as it gets!

[Doctor_K]

You think it would actually work?  Logistically?