Shoppes of Avondale Photo Tour

[ChriswUfGator]

I spoke with frank this morning about these comments and the same few people who keep making them.  As to the trees that we removed, here are the facts.  Yes, they were on our property but a permit is required to cut them down and the city granted us permission to do so.  They were laurel oaks.  We consulted with several tree experts who determined they contained rot on their interior trunks and were dying at the tops. This, along with the fact they were past maturity and less than 4' from the building itself and poised a significant threat, were the only reason they were approved for removal.  Additionally, the building has extensive infrastructure underground in front along St Johns Avenue.  This includes multiple water supply lines, multiple sewer lines and a grease trap, and the tree's root systems were damaging these lines and required constant repairs throughout the years we operated Sterlings.  The trees in front of the parking lot were magnolia, not oaks, and were nearly dead and were an eyesore.  Additionally, the city requested we bury the electrical lines to remove the concrete power line.  This was done at OUR expense and was substantial, $17,000.00.  Then there were  the requests from the city, property and shop owners concerning the continuity of the sidewalk and allowing an uninterrupted flow of foot traffic along the north side.

You're mixed up, I defended Frank and said I liked him and thought he was a nice guy in the other thread. I don't know what happened to all of that, it got deleted. But don't get me confused with someone else. I was't the one making negative comments, that was somebody else.

Regarding the trees, people regularly misidentify laurel oak vs swamp laurel oak vs live oak, they can be very similar in appearance if they get trimmed regularly and are thus prevented from developing their natural canopy shapes. They were probably misidentified, as it would seem rather odd that on a street lined with multiple oak trees all planted at the same time and all being in good health, that only these two were of a different type and in bad health? But I suppose stranger things certainly happen every day. I don't think you or Frank had any ill will. Its just a shame all the trees around here keep disappearing, but even that's really JEA's fault not yours. I agree with Jeffrey that JEA has really overdone tree removal around here, and there is a lot of frustration about it, some of which is probably falling onto you.

Also, as a side note, every time I've ever dealt with one of those tree surgeon / tree 'expert' companies, it seems like they always say the tree needs to be removed for $3k. I suspect it's like that undercover study the news did awhile ago with taking a car they had already checked out into various repair shops, and almost every single one of them made up nonexistent problems in order to charge for more work.

And for the record, here is a brief lesson on Oak identification before people continue to take these things down.

Here is live oak bark;



Here is laurel oak bark;



Live oak bark is rough and dark grey or blackish, while laurel oak bark is smooth and often has a lighter grey / greenish tint to it. Additionally, here is a comparison of the leaves, laurel oak is on the left and live oak on the right;



As you can clearly see from the pictures MetroJacksonville has posted in this thread, the twin rows of oaks down Saint Johns Avenue are live oaks. I would have no idea why the original developers would have planted all of a particular type of tree up and down Saint Johns Avenue, with the sole exception of just the handful in front of Sterling's? That seems rather unlikely, though it's certainly possible. It does seem far more likely they were probably misidentified. But you guys didn't do anything wrong, you obviously thought they were laurel oaks. Most people can't tell the difference, tree identification is something of a boring hobby.

Lemme tell you, JEA clearly doesn't know the difference either. Or more likely, JEA just doesn't care because they think they're saving money by not having to fix a power line down the road. I agree with Kay about doing something to bury the lines and save the tree canopy, if it keeps disappearing at this rate there won't be anything left, and the canopy is really a big part of why this place feels the way it does. I suspect people would pay a few more dollars in tax to have completely reliable electrical service during storms and still keep the tree canopy. That definitely may be something to explore.

[Tonyinchicago]

Thanks Chris, i was referring to the silly comments that somehow the Blue fish and it's current operator, Richard Grenamyer, were responsible for the tree removal.  He does not own the building and no input in the decision.  Frank told me they were laurel and thats all I know.  We  had to climb onto the roof on a weekly basis to remove the debris that constantly clogged the drains (to avoid the flat roof from becoming a swimming pool and subsequently causing ceiling leaks) and from up above, you could see the problems the branches contained.  This went on for years and we hesitated to take any action until the building's integrity and infrastructure i outlined earlier were in peril.  Who would allow a huge tree 3 1/2 feet from a building that is diseased to remain?    Really, nobody loves the trees in our neighborhood more or has a bigger vested interest in preserving the character of the area than we do, owning 5 properties on St johns Ave alone.  For some to suggest that somehow we extract pleasure from cutting down trees is an outrage.

[ChriswUfGator]

Thanks Chris, i was referring to the silly comments that somehow the Blue fish and it's current operator, Richard Grenamyer, were responsible for the tree removal.  He does not own the building and no input in the decision.  Frank told me they were laurel and thats all I know.  We  had to climb onto the roof on a weekly basis to remove the debris that constantly clogged the drains (to avoid the flat roof from becoming a swimming pool and subsequently causing ceiling leaks) and from up above, you could see the problems the branches contained.  This went on for years and we hesitated to take any action until the building's integrity and infrastructure i outlined earlier were in peril.  Who would allow a huge tree 3 1/2 feet from a building that is diseased to remain?    Really, nobody loves the trees in our neighborhood more or has a bigger vested interest in preserving the character of the area than we do, owning 5 properties on St johns Ave alone.  For some to suggest that somehow we extract pleasure from cutting down trees is an outrage.

Maybe they were laurels, then. I am having a hard time visualizing it, now that the new streetscape is finished and has set itself into my memory, but were those trees in front of sterlings set back from the row of other trees?

They may have been planted later by whoever did all the work to that property. Your building was changed around, you guys have a lot more sidewalk real estate than the other buildings, and the original layout of the parcel was changed and well after the strip was originally constructed, so I suppose they could have been re-planted at that time. From the basic architecture, I'm guessing that probably would have been the 60s, so well before you owned it.

[Tonyinchicago]

Very good observation, and yes the property layout is unique to the others as we have what was the alley behind grandfathered as ours.  Joseph LaRose was the owner for many decades and he designed the interior staircase, layout and exterior facade in the 60's.  I suspect he planted the trees sometime during the 70's or 80's. They were out of line with the other trees along the strip being much closer to the building.  And after looking at the photos you posted, you have confirmed for me (100%) that they were indeed laurel.  I would know, having dealt with the leaves for 2 decades.  And the bark is correct too.  Thank you for taking the time and trouble to thoughtfully post these photos for us.

[ChriswUfGator]

Very good observation, and yes the property layout is unique to the others as we have what was the alley behind grandfathered as ours.  Joseph LaRose was the owner for many decades and he designed the interior staircase, layout and exterior facade in the 60's.  I suspect he planted the trees sometime during the 70's or 80's. They were out of line with the other trees along the strip being much closer to the building.  And after looking at the photos you posted, you have confirmed for me (100%) that they were indeed laurel.  I would know, having dealt with the leaves for 2 decades.  And the bark is correct too.  Thank you for taking the time and trouble to thoughtfully post these photos for us.

Thanks for confirming that, I thought I remembered your trees being set back from the rest of the line of trees, but now that I've been through there since the streetscaping I was having a hard time visualizing it. Well as far as I'm concerned that settles it, then. The renovations to your place in the 60s would have given a laurel oak almost the exact amount of time it would need to reach that size, and that certainly would explain why the trees weren't the originals. Your building is unique to that strip, the others are mostly untouched while yours went through a complete overhaul 50 years ago. It would make sense that they would have redone the landscaping as part of the project.

[Tonyinchicago]

Check out the Mediterranean house on the NW corner of Avondale and St. Johns, the same house was originally the building, and was modified over the years to what it is today.  There are areas inside Blue fish today where this is plainly evident.

[grimss]

I drive past the Shoppes every day, and have since 1996, and can't remember a time when the area has looked better. Even with the handful of vacant storefronts (and the oozing sore that is the empty garage), there's never been a finer selection of restaurants or nice boutique shops. Still in mourning over the loss of Armor and Karl's, and still holding out for a great gourmet takeaway (remember when Biscotti's used to do this?), but I think this area is somehow managing to hold its own during this recession.

[grimss]

Wondering what you can do in a single day at the Shoppes? Check this out: http://letsgolo.wordpress.com/avondale/