2010-856- Transient Vendors in Jacksonville

[fieldafm]

At the last council meeting there was a resolution in a jbill that will create an "Urban Transition Area" in Riverside. A Special Drinking Zone.

I actually see that as a good thing for the neighborhood.  North Riverside is in need of some help in order to thrive as it once did.  The Urban Transition Area has special allowances to spur commercial businesses that can create vibrancy.... much like the businesses that have made King Street a destination again.

But I think this particular bill(2010-856) really targets the transient 'vendors' that sell rugs, paintings, agricultural products, nursuries, etc on the side of the road.  'Hot Dog Cart Bill' is kind of a misleading title... unless Im not understanding the bill correctly?

[urbanlibertarian]

"But I think this particular bill(2010-856) really targets the transient 'vendors' that sell rugs, paintings, agricultural products, nursuries, etc on the side of the road.  'Hot Dog Cart Bill' is kind of a misleading title... unless Im not understanding the bill correctly?"

Whether it's food or products, the law would limit consumer's choices.  Competition improves the economy whether it's perceived as "fair" or not.

[fieldafm]

Whether it's food or products, the law would limit consumer's choices.  Competition improves the economy whether it's perceived as "fair" or not.

Labeling this the 'Hot Dog Cart' bill implies it targets hot dog cart owners only.  Thats simply not an accurate representation of the bill, is my point.

And really, this bill(not sure if Im for or against it at this point) is the same economic argument as my justification for making the hundred or so gambling parlors(aka sweepstakes stores) that the city council didn't have the backbone to stand up to deemed illegal(as they are IMO).  There are barriers of entry to any particular business, if you don't comply with the same rules everyone else plays by, you shouldnt be allowed to enter the game.

Do you want your children to be watched by unlicensed, unregulated, and uninsured 'day care centers'?
Or how bout the axles on your car snapping while your driving down the highway b/c you unbeknowingly bought counterfit axles?

[Noone]

At the last council meeting there was a resolution in a jbill that will create an "Urban Transition Area" in Riverside. A Special Drinking Zone.

I actually see that as a good thing for the neighborhood.  North Riverside is in need of some help in order to thrive as it once did.  The Urban Transition Area has special allowances to spur commercial businesses that can create vibrancy.... much like the businesses that have made King Street a destination again.

But I think this particular bill(2010-856) really targets the transient 'vendors' that sell rugs, paintings, agricultural products, nursuries, etc on the side of the road.  'Hot Dog Cart Bill' is kind of a misleading title... unless Im not understanding the bill correctly?

"Urban Transition Area" in Riverside I still say its legislative protectionism. Any other bar in the city that wants it allow them the opportunity to do it as well.

You are absolutely right about 2010-856. Its not just a hot dog cart. In fact the scope of what constitutes a transient service is more widespread and diverse in its interpretation. Why is this being pushed NOW?

There is a JCCI study going on right now RECESSION, RECOVERY, and BEYOND. This ordinance should be part of the study. Is anyone on this forum participating in this study?

I've done two and it was horrible. Just a stab in the back to the people of Jacksonville that legislation that could have an impact on a study was acted on or introduced right in the middle of the study. This sounds exactly what is happening again. How wrong.

These studies do guide policy.

[strider]

Labeling this the 'Hot Dog Cart' bill implies it targets hot dog cart owners only.  Thats simply not an accurate representation of the bill, is my point.

And really, this bill(not sure if Im for or against it at this point) is the same economic argument as my justification for making the hundred or so gambling parlors(aka sweepstakes stores) that the city council didn't have the backbone to stand up to deemed illegal(as they are IMO).  There are barriers of entry to any particular business, if you don't comply with the same rules everyone else plays by, you shouldnt be allowed to enter the game.

Do you want your children to be watched by unlicensed, unregulated, and uninsured 'day care centers'?
Or how bout the axles on your car snapping while your driving down the highway b/c you unbeknowingly bought counterfit axles?

This law, whether by intention or unintended consequence, will greatly affect the hot dog stand. Existing ones being grandfathered or not is a good question that I have not seen the answer to yet.

As far as fears of illegal business, that is just that, fear that has no basis here.  The laws that prevent the illegal transient businesses are already in place and already enforced.  If you feel they are not being enforced properly, then you get them enforced, not write a new law.   Perhaps this is a case where the current law is not strong enough to prevent illegal businesses from operating, but this law does not seem to address that so is not needed for anything but the unfair limiting of businesses to protect what are perhaps badly run or unneeded businesses.

I know that a hot dog stand actually has more hoops to jump through than the Gate Station that sells a few hot dogs (not very good ones at that).  I also have issues with the word "barriers" as no government should be putting up barriers in front of someone wanting to open a business, but regulating that business to insure that it protects the public safety and is obeying the appropriate laws. There is a big difference between the two.  Unfortunately, the COJ often does present unnecessary financial barriers and probably will produce more as time goes by.

[Garden guy]

I"m more opposed to the permanent yard sales that have popped up in neighborhoods everywhere. Nothing like a good hotdog and i do support the idea that if your food is good enough don't worry about it.

[JC]

I"m more opposed to the permanent yard sales that have popped up in neighborhoods everywhere. Nothing like a good hotdog and i do support the idea that if your food is good enough don't worry about it.

Maybe you are opposed because you are not desperate??

[Dog Walker]

Come on, JC!  Don't immediately jump to disparaging someone's motives. Take the chip off.

"Garden, maybe the people who are holding yard sales every weekend are out of work and struggling to make a little money to live on.  These are tough times for a lot of people.  Cut them a little slack." - JC

Your point gets across without making everybody defensive.  You have interesting points of view and frequently one that the rest of us have not considered so add a lot of value to our discussions.  Just don't start off angry with us, please.

[Miss Fixit]

There is an article in this morning's Florida Times Union / Jacksonville.com about the Cavin brothers' new food truck, which features menu items from their restaurants Mossfire Grill and O' Brothers.  Wonder how this proposed ordinance will effect them?

[JC]

Come on, JC!  Don't immediately jump to disparaging someone's motives. Take the chip off.

"Garden, maybe the people who are holding yard sales every weekend are out of work and struggling to make a little money to live on.  These are tough times for a lot of people.  Cut them a little slack." - JC

Your point gets across without making everybody defensive.  You have interesting points of view and frequently one that the rest of us have not considered so add a lot of value to our discussions.  Just don't start off angry with us, please.

ok

[Dog Walker]

 

[Old Jim]

What would this bill do to the organized events using temporary vendors, such as craft fairs and school festivals? What about the Riverside Arts Market? Many of these affairs are within a mile of numerous businesses. Who would police what products or services are offered within a mile of a business? Just curious.

[Ernest Street]

There is an article in this morning's Florida Times Union / Jacksonville.com about the Cavin brothers' new food truck, which features menu items from their restaurants Mossfire Grill and O' Brothers.  Wonder how this proposed ordinance will effect them?

On their website...yes the truck has it's own..it is advertised as a catering truck for "events"...now I don't know how this would effect them downtown, obviously within a mile of a lot of venues that serve food.
An impressive leap of faith in this economy..that bus wasn't cheap, and to outfit it for catering...

  www.businyourchops.com

[fieldafm]

Labeling this the 'Hot Dog Cart' bill implies it targets hot dog cart owners only.  Thats simply not an accurate representation of the bill, is my point.

And really, this bill(not sure if Im for or against it at this point) is the same economic argument as my justification for making the hundred or so gambling parlors(aka sweepstakes stores) that the city council didn't have the backbone to stand up to deemed illegal(as they are IMO).  There are barriers of entry to any particular business, if you don't comply with the same rules everyone else plays by, you shouldnt be allowed to enter the game.

Do you want your children to be watched by unlicensed, unregulated, and uninsured 'day care centers'?
Or how bout the axles on your car snapping while your driving down the highway b/c you unbeknowingly bought counterfit axles?

This law, whether by intention or unintended consequence, will greatly affect the hot dog stand. Existing ones being grandfathered or not is a good question that I have not seen the answer to yet.

As far as fears of illegal business, that is just that, fear that has no basis here.  The laws that prevent the illegal transient businesses are already in place and already enforced.  If you feel they are not being enforced properly, then you get them enforced, not write a new law.   Perhaps this is a case where the current law is not strong enough to prevent illegal businesses from operating, but this law does not seem to address that so is not needed for anything but the unfair limiting of businesses to protect what are perhaps badly run or unneeded businesses.

I know that a hot dog stand actually has more hoops to jump through than the Gate Station that sells a few hot dogs (not very good ones at that).  I also have issues with the word "barriers" as no government should be putting up barriers in front of someone wanting to open a business, but regulating that business to insure that it protects the public safety and is obeying the appropriate laws. There is a big difference between the two.  Unfortunately, the COJ often does present unnecessary financial barriers and probably will produce more as time goes by.

I am the very last person on this board that wants government entangled in private business affairs than is absolutely necessary... but I think you're taking the word 'barriers' too literally.  Paying income tax, having a valid business license, valid permits, paying sales taxes, paying social security taxes for your workers, being subject to inspections.... basically following the law, that's an economic barrier of entry that certain transient businesses simply skirt around. 

Im still not for or against this bill yet... but to play devils advocate, in my thread about the illegal gambling institutions that the council didnt have the backbone to stand up to, this exact same economic argument was well received by many on this board. 

[Noone]

What would this bill do to the organized events using temporary vendors, such as craft fairs and school festivals? What about the Riverside Arts Market? Many of these affairs are within a mile of numerous businesses. Who would police what products or services are offered within a mile of a business? Just curious.

Old Jim, Welcome to the forum. This legislation is scheduled for two committees. Rules and RCD.
The legislation exempts Downtown. What is the boundry of Downtown? The Downtown Vision boundry? or would it be 2003-627 which is our Downtown Jacksonville Overlay Zoning District?
Will all 501-c be exempt? This would exempt the Riverside Arts Market.

Again we are in the middle of a JCCI study Recession, Recovery, and Beyond. Also a new city council and mayoral campaign that will have new leadership in 4 months. Is this legislation an emergency. No.

Defer the bill. Has there been one story on the news or print media about this legislation. I haven't seen it. Be concerned.