A Solution to Jacksonville's Logistics Problems

[cline]

To figure out the total mileage of CSX owned track, we'll need to know how much of the 11-mile Blount Island spur (if any) does JAXPORT's railroad control?

Does JaxPort control any of that spur?  I was under the impression that it was all CSX as part of the Dames Point spur.  

[fieldafm]

CSX may have bigger fish to fry.  In the grand scheme of things JAXPORT is a small player to them.  From what I understand, they have higher priorities in upgrading their facilities in other (more profitable) areas of the US.

CSX though is talking with Jaxport about direct rail offloading facilities right now.  Jaxport is going to almost double it's TEU output with the Hanjin deal alone.  Let's be honest, the reason Mr Rick Ferrin(who was a phenomenal operational manager to his credit) is being replaced is that Jaxport is afraid of losing out on the Post-Panamax revolution and need to get massive money in their hands to upgrade the facilities so as to reap the rewards of this once-in-a-lifetime opportunity gold rush.  They are behind the 8 ball so to speak now.  With that said, if they can start upgrading their facilities by 2015-ish timeframe, they could potentially triple their cargo.... CSX sees this and is pushing Jaxport to action.

you're getting a dedicated revenue generator

So, the city would lease track time to multiple rail carriers(why couldn't CSX just do the exact same things themselves if they think there is significant revenue to be generated and just rent time on the portion owned by the city?  To further my knowledge, where are some examples of this around the country(where the municipal owns the track and leases back to multiple carriers)... trying to get an idea of the amount of money we are talking about here.  Again, a regional rail agency sounds like it would be required.

What revenue is generated from commuter rail-Im assuming this is not exactly revenue neutral... who funds the losses from commuter rail?  And would a regional transit agency/regional rail agency also lease time from the city, or would the city then give the land to said agency?  I ask b/c I'm ignorant on matters such as this.

[thelakelander]

To figure out the total mileage of CSX owned track, we'll need to know how much of the 11-mile Blount Island spur (if any) does JAXPORT's railroad control?

Does JaxPort control any of that spur?  I was under the impression that it was all CSX as part of the Dames Point spur. 

I don't know.  I've heard in the past that a short line operator works Blount Island but I would not be suprised if CSX owns the entire thing.  I'm hoping that someone with more in depth knowledge will fill in the gap.

[tufsu1]

The Orlando/Sunrail deal with CSX is $150 million for 61 miles of track, which breaks down to $2.46 million/mile.  A similar number for 23 to 40 miles of track would put our number in the $56.6 - $98.4 million range.

some folks like to claim it was closer to $425 million for 61 miles...or basically $7 million per mile....that is the # the Tampa people are using in their LRT estimates ($680 million for 97 miles)

[tufsu1]

The City should have a rail authority!

more goverment...woo hoo!

[thelakelander]

CSX may have bigger fish to fry.  In the grand scheme of things JAXPORT is a small player to them.  From what I understand, they have higher priorities in upgrading their facilities in other (more profitable) areas of the US.

CSX though is talking with Jaxport about direct rail offloading facilities right now.  Jaxport is going to almost double it's TEU output with the Hanjin deal alone.  Let's be honest, the reason Mr Rick Ferrin(who was a phenomenal operational manager to his credit) is being replaced is that Jaxport is afraid of losing out on the Post-Panamax revolution and need to get massive money in their hands to upgrade the facilities so as to reap the rewards of this once-in-a-lifetime opportunity gold rush.  They are behind the 8 ball so to speak now.  With that said, if they can start upgrading their facilities by 2015-ish timeframe, they could potentially triple their cargo.... CSX sees this and is pushing Jaxport to action.

Let's be honest.  If it were really a top priority of CSX, they'd pay for the facility and the Springfield bypass themselves.  While they may be talking, no one has come to the table in the aggressive manner that improvements are taking place in other areas of the country, such as the National Gateway project.

http://www.nationalgateway.org/

http://blog.cleveland.com/business/2008/05/csx_plans_190_million_rail_upg.html

So, the city would lease track time to multiple rail carriers(why couldn't CSX just do the exact same things themselves if they think there is significant revenue to be generated and just rent time on the portion owned by the city?  To further my knowledge, where are some examples of this around the country(where the municipal owns the track and leases back to multiple carriers)... trying to get an idea of the amount of money we are talking about here.  Again, a regional rail agency sounds like it would be required.

I'm sure Ock will explain in greater detail but from my understanding, you would have a single short line work the municipal owned track between the three carriers, from my understanding.  An example of this can be found at the Tallyrand terminal.  There the Tallyrand Terminal Railroad connects goods moving in and out of that terminal with both CSX and NS.

What revenue is generated from commuter rail-Im assuming this is not exactly revenue neutral... who funds the losses from commuter rail?  And would a regional transit agency/regional rail agency also lease time from the city, or would the city then give the land to said agency?  I ask b/c I'm ignorant on matters such as this.

Direct revenue generated would come from the freight side and the potential for additional industrial development along the existing line. Indirect revenue generated would come from TOD associated with passenger rail throughout the Northside.  I'm not a railroad guy, so I can't answer all of your questions in great detail, but I'm sure you'll have them by the end of the night.

[thelakelander]

The Orlando/Sunrail deal with CSX is $150 million for 61 miles of track, which breaks down to $2.46 million/mile.  A similar number for 23 to 40 miles of track would put our number in the $56.6 - $98.4 million range.

some folks like to claim it was closer to $425 million for 61 miles...or basically $7 million per mile....that is the # the Tampa people are using in their LRT estimates ($680 million for 97 miles)

The actual purchase of the 61 miles of track was for $150 million.  The additional money is associated with the upgrade to the S-Line, since CSX would have to relocate existing traffic on that main line to another to bypass Orlando.  This would not be the case in either Tampa or Jacksonville.  In these situations, you're talking about non "mainline" track at the end of the line.

[CS Foltz]

The City should have a rail authority!

more goverment...woo hoo!

Do you trust JTA to do the right thing regarding rail? I know that I don't.........not sure about the so-called Rail Commision either! Mr Delaney does not have a clue any more than the Mayoral Candidates either. Rick Mullaney has an idea, but he cheated.............he got with stephen and lake one Saturday morning and he took notes from what I saw..........hope it means something to him, we will see!! A seperate rail commision may be something to consider..........at least think about!!

[thelakelander]

The break down of the CSX/Sunrail deal can be found on page 8 of this document:

http://www.righttrackflorida.org/_resources/browse/file/SunRail%20Briefing%20Book%20Jan%2009.pdf

[fsujax]

well, tufusu it seems not many on this board trust JTA, FDOT, COJ, the Port and whoever else to do anything right so I figured just create another entity!

[Coolyfett]

Most of the ideas stimulated on this site do make the radar of our civic leaders, council and mayor's office. Some, like the Laura Street streetscape, removing BRT from Adams Street and commuter rail become actual projects. Others take more time to pick up steam. All we can keep doing is to continue to expose and promote creative ideas and concepts that will make Jax a better place because you never know who's paying attention.

This is true, the promotion of ideas is where its at, some great ideas cost a lot of money though. I think logistics is important for the future of many cities/metros...If Jax can get a big grip of the shipping sector, it would be a great thing.

[Coolyfett]

The City should have a rail authority!

more goverment...woo hoo!

Do you trust JTA to do the right thing regarding rail? I know that I don't.........not sure about the so-called Rail Commision either! Mr Delaney does not have a clue any more than the Mayoral Candidates either. Rick Mullaney has an idea, but he cheated.............he got with stephen and lake one Saturday morning and he took notes from what I saw..........hope it means something to him, we will see!! A seperate rail commision may be something to consider..........at least think about!!

I dont like this. JTA may have a bad rep, but another transit firm in Duval? Or is this something for the 4 county metro?

[thelakelander]

^I think Jax would be better off trying to kill multiple birds with one stone. Logistics deals with more than just the needs of JAXPORT.  As soon as we figure that out, we'll open our eyes to potential solutions that help JAXPORT and resolve other issues facing this community at the same time.  Something else to keep in mind is such (multimodal) strategies will also allow us to tap into additional financing resources that may not be available to single focused solutions.

[tufsu1]

well, tufusu it seems not many on this board trust JTA, FDOT, COJ, the Port and whoever else to do anything right so I figured just create another entity!

guess I should have put a wink icon next to my statement....I was kind of kidding.

That said, you have a point

[CS Foltz]

NFTPO had some idea's regarding this and there was talk about a possible Regional Transportation Office overseeing everything! Not really sure which would be the most cost efficient way to go............I just know I don't believe JTA has much in the way of answers for much of anything! Unless your discussing "Concrete" then they are king of the hill!