Another major company abandoning Downtown for the Southside.

[ChriswUfGator]

Is parking free in Tulsa, Wichita, Toledo, Tuscon, Gainesville FL, Tally, Greenville SC, list goes on?

Parking is free in Gainesville and Greenville.

[thelakelander]

Is parking free in Tulsa, Wichita, Toledo, Tuscon, Gainesville FL, Tally, Greenville SC, list goes on?

There are a few major cities that I've visited in the last year or so that are successfully experimenting with free time limited parking on major commercial corridors in their downtowns.  These places include Cleveland, Savannah, Raleigh and Mobile.  On-street parking is also free on Greenville's Main Street.  Anyway, I do agree that free on-street parking won't solve downtown's problems by itself but it would be more end user friendly than the current metered parking situation we have.

[simms3]

Also people are willing to walk and park inconveniently at the Town Center because it is what is familiar to them and is more conveniently located to more people.

Downtown is unfamiliar to people in Jacksonville, and many people in Jax relocate here to actually be in the suburbs and avoid urban areas.  We are fighting that kind of populace.  Free parking won't convince them to come downtown.  Making downtown something they can identify with and enjoy will convince them to come downtown and paying for parking shouldn't kill that (it doesn't in other cities).  If downtown were a more "family friendly" place with a higher perceived safety and more people talking about it and promoting it (ahem we can start with our own city leaders), then things can also start to change (but only if policy is changed to make it worth it for small investors to open up shop downtown and get the ball rolling).

[ChriswUfGator]

Is parking free in Tulsa, Wichita, Toledo, Tuscon, Gainesville FL, Tally, Greenville SC, list goes on?

There are a few major cities that I've visited in the last year or so that are successfully experimenting with free time limited parking on major commercial corridors in their downtowns.  These places include Cleveland, Savannah, Raleigh and Mobile.  On-street parking is also free on Greenville's Main Street.  Anyway, I do agree that free on-street parking won't solve downtown's problems by itself but it would be more end user friendly than the current metered parking situation we have.

+1

I feel like I'm beating my head against a wall with this, trying to argue with people who want to point out that parking isn't a total complete final all encompassing solution. Well duh, of course its only one part of the puzzle. But it's a very necessary part of the puzzle, and is presently holding us back.

[ChriswUfGator]

Is parking free in Tulsa, Wichita, Toledo, Tuscon, Gainesville FL, Tally, Greenville SC, list goes on?

There are a few major cities that I've visited in the last year or so that are successfully experimenting with free time limited parking on major commercial corridors in their downtowns.  These places include Cleveland, Savannah, Raleigh and Mobile.  On-street parking is also free on Greenville's Main Street.  Anyway, I do agree that free on-street parking won't solve downtown's problems by itself but it would be more end user friendly than the current metered parking situation we have.

As a stand alone, free parking will not solve all of downtown's problems.  But the present set of parking policies is a major factor that is keeping the solutions from happening.

+1

[simms3]

Also I just drove through Greenville and was completely underwhelmed.  It was not imo all that it was hyped up to be and seemed very very small (Don't fall for that Greenville-Spartanburg-Anderson being 1.2 million person CSA crap).  And Greenville is not growing nearly as quickly as Jax.  It is a completely different city, but I'm glad for them I guess that on-street parking is free.  I would have happily paid if I had time and desire to walk around and take pics (because I guess I am used to paying in every downtown or urban submarket I go to).

[simms3]

OK well I have gotten more parking tickets in Atlanta than Jacksonville and I'm sure tons of other Atlantans have gotten tickets as well, but somehow people still keep coming back to the core in hoards.  You can literally sit in traffic on Peachtree heading south on a Friday and Saturday night because of all the people trying to get into downtown, and at night is when parking is actually most expensive.  Parking does not hold anyone back here.  It's probably a combination of just more urban minded people who would prefer to be in the core when they can and a core that actually provides a product worth paying for.

I know our downtown does not provide a product worth paying for (which is why you can easily park for free at night and on weekends to go to Bay Street or the Landing), but making on street parking free will be a mess.  Sure, enact time limits.  Those time limits have to then be enforced, which is difficult.  They are easily enforced with meters because meters will only allow you to pay up to the maximum time and then they expire.  Greenville does not have nearly as many office workers as downtown Jax, and neither does Savannah.  We may be suffering high vacancies, but we still have a high enough concetration of office workers who will find a way to use a free parking system to their advantage and prevent visitors from thereby using it.

[simms3]

I brought it up as a smaller example because someone thought my first shortlist of examples wasn't sufficient and I was trying to make a point.

[thelakelander]

Btw, going back to the the original purpose of this thread, free on-street parking would not have kept any of these major corporate companies from moving to the Southside.  The corporate parking situation deals with the cost of dedicated parking (in some cases, dedicated parking for hundreds of employees) in the garages and surface lots.  

For example, my small firm will have to pay $90/month for each employee when we move to the Northbank.  There's 15 of us, so that adds up to $16,200 for parking a year.  Use the same numbers for a company like Adecco and that number rises above $400k/year for dedicated parking alone.  Move to the Southside and that's a ton of money saved in an environment (although its suburban) that's more lively and attractive for the average person.  Throw in the fact that suburban lease rates are also cheaper and it just doesn't make sense for many places to stay or relocate to DT Jax.  Until we stop trying to sell people a polished turd as a true urban center, the negative flow will continue.

[simms3]

Yea but Lake, there are also tons of employees downtown who contract for their own parking.  My dad and my uncle are two examples.  That's why you see lots where it is first come first serve for a good daily rate (if you are willing to get there that early and have your car in a surface lot uncovered).  But overall, yea I agree with you, on-street parking would not solve major companies leaving who cover large amounts of dedicated parking.

If I paid for my own parking and on street was free, hell yea I would race to get to work early and find and on street spot (and if I had to move it every few hours I would attempt to do so, but that's just me).  People who smoke cigs can multi task and smoke a cig while they move their car.  I don't think paying a fortune for a numbered spot is worth it and I would only pay for an un-numbered spot in a garage if I had to pay for parking and on street wasn't free.

[simms3]

Wow 20 bucks a month.  Garages and lots in Atlanta charge 20 bucks for a day for single use people.  Some large lots recently opened up that are first come first serve charge 5-8 for a day and are full by 7:15 or 7:30 (and 5 bucks a day still ends up around $100 a month).  $20 for an entire month?  I know general appreciation has not been that extreme LoL.  And going back to the cost of building a garage, 20 bucks won't even service the construction loan.

[simms3]

Also, I need to make this point before I forget it.  I think we can all agree that Charlotte has a successful downtown.  They have arguably faced a few obstacles we haven't had to face (but obviously we face a different set of tough obstacles making it difficult to bring people downtown).  I doubt that Charlotte at one point had free on street and garage parking.  I do know that now they have on street parking that is $2/hr with a 2 hour max and you pay by electronic machine.  It is convenient (except a significant portion of the parking is taken up by taxis...which we don't really have).  Their downtown wasn't always a success, but I would venture a bet that for at least around as long as our downtown has, they have charged for parking. And I don't know the garage rates there, but I am sure they aren't free (and I am sure for visitors they aren't expensive).

So what made their downtown a success?  Because they didn't implement any free parking.  I believe it probably has a good part to do with their city leadership and policies and also a good amount to do with the corporations they have there, but not free parking.

Another thing to note is that the reason we will always have to subsidize the stupid sports district garages is because they are so isolated, but the garage for Time Warner Center in Charlotte can be used not only for events at the stadium but for general downtown parking just because it is centrally located.  That is attributable to better planning, vision, and leadership.

We can enact free on street parking and downtown can still continue to decline or we can have better leadership with clearer vision that leads to better planning that can lead to a successful downtown where people are willing to purchase the product of downtown in the form of parking (and generally higher costs).

[simms3]

What has been said on other threads?

1. Remove all downtown parking meters.

2. Replace with appropriate time signs (15 minutes to 4 hours). Unlimited parking is some locations, or leave the all day meters intact.

3. First 3 tickets are warnings.

4. After 3 warnings, $50 citations.

This will forgive the uninitiated visitor to Downtown, and discourage street parking by office workers.

We have the technology, the van, to implement this.  2 officers could work the van.  Get rid of the rest and same money for the City.

Don Redman, are you listening?  I supported you during your campaign, and have taken a lot of heat for doing so.  Be remembered for sensible and effective action to make Downtown Jacksonville a better place to live, work, and conduct business.

ATTENTION STEPHEN DARE:  Do Not Delete Any More of My Posts Without Asking Me First!

I said on another bumped thread that I would concede on my views of paying a meter (whether coin or electronic) for on street parking if the van was used to strictly enforce time limits and repeat offenders.

Also we can't necessarily make lots and garages free.  Lots are usually private and can do as they please and garages are sometimes private, sometimes public.  Our public garages should still charge a very fair rate of $1-2/hr and should be highly visible with signage on the garages and signs leading visitors to garages.  The city should do a better job of advertising that with the library garage an hour is free with validation.

[simms3]

Oh and the van should pick up on repeat offenders who park on street and routinely move their car to other spots to avoid a time ticket.  These kinds of offenders would be the office workers trying to use a free 3 or 4 hour spot to park for their employment.

[Miss Fixit]

Wow 20 bucks a month.  Garages and lots in Atlanta charge 20 bucks for a day for single use people.  Some large lots recently opened up that are first come first serve charge 5-8 for a day and are full by 7:15 or 7:30 (and 5 bucks a day still ends up around $100 a month).  $20 for an entire month?  I know general appreciation has not been that extreme LoL.  And going back to the cost of building a garage, 20 bucks won't even service the construction loan.

I started working in downtown Jacksonville in the mid '80s and garage rates were already over $50 per month then.  I certainly paid close to $100 per month in the 90s.  Never found any $20 garages, and I was always looking for a deal. 

You're right - no way can 20 bucks a spot service the construction loan.  The only way to get costs that low, or even below $50 per month, would be subsidies by the city.