Another major company abandoning Downtown for the Southside.

[simms3]

And FWIW, we already settled this debate, didn't we? I choose not to enter the agreement, and I don't go down there to have to worry about asinine rules and BS tickets, and neither do most other people.

Right now the only reason I go to downtown Jax is to take pictures, go to the River Club or to top of BofA (and the first has its own garage that's free for that purpose), go to East Bay Street at night (free parking in courthouse lot), or visit dad (his building has a garage and I get validated).  There is no "real" reason for me to go downtown.

In Atlanta I live downtown, but if I did not live downtown I would go there for eating out, visiting friends, school, meetings for a variety of things like ULI for instance, clubs/bars, Piedmont Park, a host of events, and the list goes on.  Because I am going downtown because I want to and that's where everyone else goes, parking is worth it.

Chris, if downtown were more than it currently is, would you think that it's worth it to pay for parking and would you go downtown?  I ask because you say you rarely go downtown because of the parking, but I have a hunch it's because there is no "real" reason to go downtown.

[Singejoufflue]

Simms, call me Sin, Sing, Singe, or whatever makes it easiest for you.

Stephen, if you work in a mall, at a big box or strip mall, you aren't allowed to park in front of the stores.  That parking is for customers only.  No meter required.  Why should employees park on the street downtown?

[tufsu1]

Also, I see people in this thread are confusing the issue. There are something less than 7k workers left downtown now, and around 35k parking spaces.

not that I want to rehash this, but that is simply not true...as shown before, there are over 5,000 government workers alone downtown

This was never "shown" during your campaign to pretend downtown = 53,000 workers (actual answer? Closer to 8,200).  Why pretend that it was?

really?

ok try this estimate for just the downtown core area:

COJ - >3,000+ employees
Sherriffs Dept - >2,500 employees
JEA - >500
Federal Govt - >500
State of Florida - >500

So that';s 7,000+...feel free to check yourself if you don't believ me

[Live_Oak]

And I do agree with singejoufflue (your profile name is to hard to spell btw).  When I park at a meter I usually give mysefl 15 or so additional minutes just in case my stay is longer, but sometimes I take my chances and don't pay at all.  In those cases I would be upset initially with a ticket, but I would realize it's my fault.  Tickets aren't too much of an inconvenience if you can pay online.  If you have to trance over to the muni courthouse then it becomes more than a $15 hastle.

The problem is that most meters are 45min or 1hr maximums, which isn't enough time to do much of anything really. Why not make them 3 or 4 hours at a minimum? It's not like there is any shortage of parking down there, who would it possibly hurt? The nonexistent small businesses that were already driven out by the very policies I'm arguing need to be changed? Come on...

It's a mess. Given the supply/demand situation for parking, and given the hurdles facing downtown redevelopment, I see no valid reason (other than greed) to charge for parking at all. There is a gross oversupply as it sits. That would stimulate visitors and foot traffic, which in turn would stimulate business development.

I thought the majority of the meters have a 2 hr max.  Anybody certain?

[simms3]

People go to malls for different reasons than downtown.  Malls are developed cohesively under different parameters that make it possible to cheaply provide mass parking.  Downtown is not the same way.  Downtown land is so much more expensive, there is less land, and downtown is not developed cohesively as one project.  Downtown by nature is a public private partnership.  The problem with our downtown is the public part is missing in many important ways so the private part suffers.

[ChriswUfGator]

Right now the only reason I go to downtown Jax is to take pictures, go to the River Club or to top of BofA (and the first has its own garage that's free for that purpose), go to East Bay Street at night (free parking in courthouse lot), or visit dad (his building has a garage and I get validated).  There is no "real" reason for me to go downtown.

In Atlanta I live downtown, but if I did not live downtown I would go there for eating out, visiting friends, school, meetings for a variety of things like ULI for instance, clubs/bars, Piedmont Park, a host of events, and the list goes on.  Because I am going downtown because I want to and that's where everyone else goes, parking is worth it.

I just made this exact point to you when I said DT Atlanta has more people than parking and JAX is the reverse, and so the two aren't comparable. Maybe I didn't explain myself thoroughly, but this is exactly what I meant.

Chris, if downtown were more than it currently is, would you think that it's worth it to pay for parking and would you go downtown?  I ask because you say you rarely go downtown because of the parking, but I have a hunch it's because there is no "real" reason to go downtown.

Well yeah, that's true. Sorta. I would probably go to Cafe Nola more, I'd go to the cigar store more, heck I may even go to the landing. I go to the downtown clubs pretty often, and go to art walk regularly, but only because I know I won't get ticketed after 5pm. But as it sits, virtually every time I go there during regular hours, I get a "green badge of courage" which I find annoying to no end. They have intentionally structured things to make it virtually unavoidable, and while I don't think a $15 ticket is going to force anybody to live in a cardboard box, there is just something uniquely infuriating about knowing you've been "had" by this kind of scam.

In BOS or ATL, or any real city for that matter, if you get hit with a ticket, I usually know up front that I deserved it, and there are things that make it worth dealing with. JAX is infuriating, because there will be your ticketed car sitting all by itself on an empty street surrounded by empty spaces and abandoned buildings and vacant lots. It's like a syphilis-ridden hooker with no teeth and a wooden peg-leg screaming at people for not having exact change.

I think COJ needs to truck in some tumbleweed to complete the picture down there, it would be that 'extra' touch that would really bring together the look they're going for. But now you're in a catch-22, since nothing will develop down there until there is actually some kind of traffic, which won't happen as long as COJ is nickel & diming and hassling everyone who tries to go down there.

[Singejoufflue]

Malls are destinations and are designed to keep you there for a maximum amount of time to ensure you spend maximum dollars.  Downtowns exist primarily as business and civic districts, therefore residential and retail take a far back seat.

[ChriswUfGator]

And I do agree with singejoufflue (your profile name is to hard to spell btw).  When I park at a meter I usually give mysefl 15 or so additional minutes just in case my stay is longer, but sometimes I take my chances and don't pay at all.  In those cases I would be upset initially with a ticket, but I would realize it's my fault.  Tickets aren't too much of an inconvenience if you can pay online.  If you have to trance over to the muni courthouse then it becomes more than a $15 hastle.

The problem is that most meters are 45min or 1hr maximums, which isn't enough time to do much of anything really. Why not make them 3 or 4 hours at a minimum? It's not like there is any shortage of parking down there, who would it possibly hurt? The nonexistent small businesses that were already driven out by the very policies I'm arguing need to be changed? Come on...

It's a mess. Given the supply/demand situation for parking, and given the hurdles facing downtown redevelopment, I see no valid reason (other than greed) to charge for parking at all. There is a gross oversupply as it sits. That would stimulate visitors and foot traffic, which in turn would stimulate business development.

I thought the majority of the meters have a 2 hr max.  Anybody certain?

The spaces around Hemming, along Bay, and pretty much everywhere else you'd actually want to park seem to be 1hr, at least the ones I've used. Some are as short as 15min. There may be a bunch of 2hr meters elsewhere, I'm not arguing that. But none of them are every particularly full, why not just make it user-friendly? What's the harm in convenience?

[ChriswUfGator]

Malls are destinations and are designed to keep you there for a maximum amount of time to ensure you spend maximum dollars.  Downtowns exist primarily as business and civic districts, therefore residential and retail take a far back seat.

You lived in Chicago and you really believe what you just wrote? Seriously?

[tufsu1]

So Id be a lot more impressed if you had some kind of documentation (which you dont), but in any case, at least we arent claiming that the number is 53,000 anymore.  Progress)

Nice deflection, but sorry...I never claimed there were 53,000 public sector employees downtown....or 53,000 total empoyees in the downtown core itself for that matter.

I believe the figure you are referring to is 51,000...which comes from the 2009 downtown report produced by JEDC

[ChriswUfGator]

So Id be a lot more impressed if you had some kind of documentation (which you dont), but in any case, at least we arent claiming that the number is 53,000 anymore.  Progress)

Nice deflection, but sorry...I never claimed there were 53,000 public sector employees downtown....or 53,000 total empoyees in the downtown core itself for that matter.

You made a few claims, declining each time actual figures got posted...

You first posted the link to the figure claiming 53k, then backed off that, admitting it included the all of the southbank and half of riverside. Then you tried to argue 30k, 18k, and I think we finally came to some kind of consensus when we started finding out the actual vacancy rates of the buildings and adding everything up, stephen and I were figuring 8k-10k or so and you were saying 12k-14k, if I remember right. Since then AmSouth, LOTS, and MPS have moved out, so how many extra people does that deduct? The true figure is certainly under 10k by now, probably way under.

[tufsu1]

thanks stephen..at least now you're getting my quotes right

[ChriswUfGator]

thanks stephen..at least now you're getting my quotes right

Ok so even using your figure, how many people worked for AmSouth, LOTS, and Modis/MPS/Adecco?

[Singejoufflue]

Downtown Chicago isn't internationally known because Ma & Pa Farmer came into the city to visit Marshall Fields or get a great cup of coffee.  DT Chicago is what it is because there is mass transit, large headquarters (United just moved downtown), commodities-trading, world-renowned architecture...The added benefit is you get cultural activities and you can buy a Jamba Juice at one of 3 stores in a 6 block radius...

(Be sure you know Chicago. The Gold Coast isn't downtown.  The Magnificent Mile isn't downtown.  The Loop is downtown.  You are hard pressed to find something to do in the Loop other than the theater after hours. Yes there is retail til 9ish, but only the tourists are willing to pay the increased sales tax.)

Stephen, here's why.  Maybe WSJ reporting and some guy from 1938 can drive home why parking meters (and the requisite enforcement) are required in downtowns and not suburban developments DESIGNED for cars.
"Employees of downtown businesses hogged spaces for whole days; some merchants deliberately parked their cars in front of competitors' stores. Other drivers circled the narrow streets waiting for a rare free space. Trucks loading or unloading double-parked. In most cities, there were no marks on curbs to delineate spaces. In the few timed spaces, enforcement by chalking the tires was easy to beat. And the art of parallel parking was in its infancy.

"None of our cities were designed for motor traffic, and only in the West were they young enough when the automobile arrived en masse to adapt themselves to the new traffic medium," wrote Arthur Pound in the Atlantic Monthly magazine in 1938." http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118574808780081653.html?mod=hps_us_editors_picks

[ChriswUfGator]

Downtown Chicago isn't internationally known because Ma & Pa Farmer came into the city to visit Marshall Fields or get a great cup of coffee.  DT Chicago is what it is because there is mass transit, large headquarters (United just moved downtown), commodities-trading, world-renowned architecture...The added benefit is you get cultural activities and you can buy a Jamba Juice at one of 3 stores in a 6 block radius...

(Be sure you know Chicago. The Gold Coast isn't downtown.  The Magnificent Mile isn't downtown.  The Loop is downtown.  You are hard pressed to find something to do in the Loop other than the theater after hours. Yes there is retail til 9ish, but only the tourists are willing to pay the increased sales tax.)

Stephen, here's why.  Maybe WSJ reporting and some guy from 1938 can drive home why parking meters (and the requisite enforcement) are required in downtowns and not suburban developments DESIGNED for cars.
"Employees of downtown businesses hogged spaces for whole days; some merchants deliberately parked their cars in front of competitors' stores. Other drivers circled the narrow streets waiting for a rare free space. Trucks loading or unloading double-parked. In most cities, there were no marks on curbs to delineate spaces. In the few timed spaces, enforcement by chalking the tires was easy to beat. And the art of parallel parking was in its infancy.

"None of our cities were designed for motor traffic, and only in the West were they young enough when the automobile arrived en masse to adapt themselves to the new traffic medium," wrote Arthur Pound in the Atlantic Monthly magazine in 1938." http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118574808780081653.html?mod=hps_us_editors_picks

Thank you for the virtual tour of downtown chicago.

Now please explain why, as Stephen asked, if your ideas are so wonderful, SJTC doesn't have parking cops & meters?

Could it be because that would drive off the customers, perhaps?