Another major company abandoning Downtown for the Southside.

[ChriswUfGator]

Eliminating the convenience parking (short-term meters) in favor of a parking free-for-all doesn't help small businesses downtown either.  If employees won't walk a few blocks (REASONABLE) from a parking garage for an 8-hour day, you think someone running into a Starbucks will?  The last garage I parked at was across from Modis and I got validation.  However, it took an Act of Congress to find a spot at 11am and the first spot I found couldn't fit my Yaris because 2 SUVs were on either side.  Top floor parking.  Even if it was free in the future I wouldn't do that to run into a coffeshop, bookstore, jewelry store, barber shop, or any other business you want me to patronize.  

Several people have complained about being ticketed for running over their meter. Um, yeah. It's a time limit.  If you can't guarantee you will be back in 2 hours (1 hour, 30 minutes, whatever the meter indicates) then don't park on the street.  It's not meant for long-term parking.  If you think it reasonable to go to an hour-long meeting that usually runs over, plus chatting and the walk to/from the office with a 2-hour limit - enjoy your fine.

Where are all these small businesses you are talking about? There aren't but a handful left...

And you miss the point. Make asinine rules and enforce them, sure it may be legal, but people will just go places where there aren't asinine rules. Who does that help? Much like in our JTA discussion, you have again missed the point.

Rather than saying how people should adapt to silly rules 'just because,' if you want success the rules must adapt.

Knock yourself out making asinine rules and enforcing them to your heart's content. The problem with your attitude is, like I told you last time, I'm not your child...or COJ's for that matter. Accordingly, there is no "rule" that says I have to go downtown at all. I'll just continue to avoid the hassle entirely by not going. The same as everyone else does. Riverside is nicer anyway, and parking is free, no skin off my teeth at all.

Keep it up with that attitude, at this rate the only people left down there shortly will be the meter maids.

[ChriswUfGator]

Eliminating the convenience parking (short-term meters) in favor of a parking free-for-all doesn't help small businesses downtown either.  If employees won't walk a few blocks (REASONABLE) from a parking garage for an 8-hour day, you think someone running into a Starbucks will?  The last garage I parked at was across from Modis and I got validation.  However, it took an Act of Congress to find a spot at 11am and the first spot I found couldn't fit my Yaris because 2 SUVs were on either side.  Top floor parking.  Even if it was free in the future I wouldn't do that to run into a coffeshop, bookstore, jewelry store, barber shop, or any other business you want me to patronize. 

Several people have complained about being ticketed for running over their meter. Um, yeah. It's a time limit.  If you can't guarantee you will be back in 2 hours (1 hour, 30 minutes, whatever the meter indicates) then don't park on the street.  It's not meant for long-term parking.  If you think it reasonable to go to an hour-long meeting that usually runs over, plus chatting and the walk to/from the office with a 2-hour limit - enjoy your fine.

Also, nobody is complaining about walking from a garage. They're complaining about the artificially inflated cost.

[tufsu1]

Also, I see people in this thread are confusing the issue. There are something less than 7k workers left downtown now, and around 35k parking spaces.

not that I want to rehash this, but that is simply not true...as shown before, there are over 5,000 government workers alone downtown

[ChriswUfGator]

Also, I see people in this thread are confusing the issue. There are something less than 7k workers left downtown now, and around 35k parking spaces.

not that I want to rehash this, but that is simply not true...as shown before, there are over 5,000 government workers alone downtown

And that's about all that's left, is government workers. The private sector has almost completely bailed.

We figured 8k or so back before AmSouth, MPS, and LOTS all bailed citing parking. I shaved off another 1k. It's close.

[Singejoufflue]

Stephen, I parked downtown at least once a week all summer.  I got great metered spots.  By the library, Hemming Plaza.  No tickets.  I used the meter as intended, quick trips.  My point was that, outside of regular DT employees, random folks aren't going to stop into any business (small, medium or large) if they are forced to park in a garage and search for a space for 15 minutes even if it is free.  That latte will be just as refreshing when I cross the bridge to get it.

Chris. I am aware of how few small businesses there are in DT.  Perhaps I should have put this in the "small business" section of the Downtown failure forum, because in those threads the tears flow about parking woes.  If you make parking free so big businesses stay, there need to be small businesses like restaurants, coffee shops, etc. so big business people can have lunch and get their haircut and buy coffee.  Those small businesses need to build closer to the big businesses to have a sufficient flow of customers during the morning, lunch and evening to minimally sustain their business.  But if all that parking is free, and the big business people park on the street in front of the little business all day, there won't be parking in a reasonably convenient distance that makes stopping downtown to patronize all the great places that are, could be and have been practical.

[ChriswUfGator]

Stephen, I parked downtown at least once a week all summer.  I got great metered spots.  By the library, Hemming Plaza.  No tickets.  I used the meter as intended, quick trips.  My point was that, outside of regular DT employees, random folks aren't going to stop into any business (small, medium or large) if they are forced to park in a garage and search for a space for 15 minutes even if it is free.  That latte will be just as refreshing when I cross the bridge to get it.

Chris. I am aware of how few small businesses there are in DT.  Perhaps I should have put this in the "small business" section of the Downtown failure forum, because in those threads the tears flow about parking woes.  If you make parking free so big businesses stay, there need to be small businesses like restaurants, coffee shops, etc. so big business people can have lunch and get their haircut and buy coffee.  Those small businesses need to build closer to the big businesses to have a sufficient flow of customers during the morning, lunch and evening to minimally sustain their business.  But if all that parking is free, and the big business people park on the street in front of the little business all day, there won't be parking in a reasonably convenient distance that makes stopping downtown to patronize all the great places that are, could be and have been practical.

Maybe you missed the point about how most meters don't even give you enough time to visit a small business, even if there were many still open down there? Well they don't. As you apparently already know.

Have you also missed all the business owners of every size, large, small, and in between, who have bailed and said that the main reason was parking? So lemme get this straight, you parked down there a handful of times, so now suddenly you're an expert who knows more than the actual business owners who have been saying for years that it's a problem? You do realize the thing inside that little green envelope you got is a ticket, not a diploma, right?

[simms3]

Parking does not need to be free.  I pay to park in Atlanta on the street every day.  I used to have a garage pass for a garage outside of my building, but now I park in a variety of spots, so I use on street parking and pay anywher from $1/hr to $0.75/half hour.  Some areas have a 2 hour max and some areas have a 4 hour max.  I carry coins because my stupid school which is normally more advanced than practically anywhere in the world still uses coin meters, but the city of Atlanta uses the electronic machines.  Most are user friendly, fast, and convenient, the new one by Tech Square is very user unfriendly (wasn't designed by a Tech student that's for sure).

For me it is worth it to pay even though I am poor.  Sometimes I use MARTA though if I have the extra time or it's rush hour and I'm glad I have that option.  It's $2.75  for one trip, even to go one stop away (I usually buy a bulkload of passes on my Breeze Card so it's less per trip).  Nothing is free.  Downtown living isn't cheap.  However, I don't have to waste time in traffic, I can park in one spot and walk everywhere (or just take the train), and I have a plethora of options within a few block radius.  Convenience convenience convenience my friend.  That's what it comes down to.  Downtown is no longer convenient or worth it for companies and small businesses to stay.  If we make it convenient and worth it, then parking costs will also be worth it to those companies that need downtown office space and those small businesses/customers that want the convenience of downtown.

[ChriswUfGator]

Singe, I suppose you think this is a great investment, don't you?

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,915.0.html

What's next for COJ Parking Enforcement? One of these?

[ChriswUfGator]

Parking does not need to be free.  I pay to park in Atlanta on the street every day.  I used to have a garage pass for a garage outside of my building, but now I park in a variety of spots, so I use on street parking and pay anywher from $1/hr to $0.75/half hour.  Some areas have a 2 hour max and some areas have a 4 hour max.  I carry coins because my stupid school which is normally more advanced than practically anywhere in the world still uses coin meters, but the city of Atlanta uses the electronic machines.  Most are user friendly, fast, and convenient, the new one by Tech Square is very user unfriendly (wasn't designed by a Tech student that's for sure).

For me it is worth it to pay even though I am poor.  Sometimes I use MARTA though if I have the extra time or it's rush hour and I'm glad I have that option.  It's $2.75  for one trip, even to go one stop away (I usually buy a bulkload of passes on my Breeze Card so it's less per trip).  Nothing is free.  Downtown living isn't cheap.  However, I don't have to waste time in traffic, I can park in one spot and walk everywhere (or just take the train), and I have a plethora of options within a few block radius.  Convenience convenience convenience my friend.  That's what it comes down to.  Downtown is no longer convenient or worth it for companies and small businesses to stay.  If we make it convenient and worth it, then parking costs will also be worth it to those companies that need downtown office space and those small businesses/customers that want the convenience of downtown.

Atlanta has more people than parking, Jacksonville has the reverse. Can't really compare the two.

[simms3]

I also must add that the last few times I was downtown and had to park outside of a garage I had no trouble finding an open spot.  Twice in the past few months my meter expired for a considerable amount of time and I did not receive a ticket (the last spot I got was probably the best in downtown...the metered spot on Forsyth next to BB&T catty corner to BofA...and that was expired for longer than an hour DURING lunch hour).  My biggest inconvenience was the fact that I had to use coins and the max time I could pay for was 1.5 hours.  Coming from Atlanta I of course had like 50 quarters in my car, but I can see a suburbanite running into a problem there.  I just don't see how parking is the big issue downtown.  Suburbanites have the perception that it's a problem and we can just educate them and make it easier for them (better signage, electronic meters, etc).  Companies who cover their employees' parking can't justify the costs, even though the costs are less than other downtowns, because there is no longer a real benefit to being in our downtown.  We can fix that by fixing downtown.  We don't need to fix the non-issue of parking.

[simms3]

Chris...your point about Atlanta?  Actually people pay for parking in downtown/midtown because it is worth it to them.  It isn't about how many people there are.  The same is not true for downtown Jax.  Even if we added no residents to downtown Jax but made downtown the hub of business and leisure, people in Jax would pay whatever to park to go there.  It's not about how many people live in the area.  My old location in Midtown was even more centralized and I never paid for parking because I could walk everywhere, so actually me living there made me not think it was worth it to pay to park.

[Singejoufflue]

OH GEEZ! Thanks Stephen for reminding me about all the disposable income I was supposed to be burning through when I was unemployed from June to this past Tuesday.  My pockets were getting heavy...

When I do go to big box stores, I'm that a-hole that makes a list and actually spends the money I intend without having to joke with the cashier about "Target being the blackhole of spending."  But, I am the person that, with disposable income, will go to a nice restaurant or stop at a local coffee shop for a slightly more expensive cup of coffee.  But not if the inconvenience of parking precludes me from getting back to my car without my coffee getting cold.  If you eliminate the meters, the 5,000 or 50,000 DT employees will gobble up all the onstreet parking.  And there aren't too many people who are going to spend a half hour trying to figure out parking to get that $4 latte.

Chris that's an a-hole picture and offensive.  Parking at a meter means you accept the risk associated with overstaying your time.  If you aren't willing to accept the $15 ticket for defaulting on your agreement to abide by the rules, DON'T PARK THERE.

[ChriswUfGator]

OH GEEZ! Thanks Stephen for reminding me about all the disposable income I was supposed to be burning through when I was unemployed from June to this past Tuesday.  My pockets were getting heavy...

When I do go to big box stores, I'm that a-hole that makes a list and actually spends the money I intend without having to joke with the cashier about "Target being the blackhole of spending."  But, I am the person that, with disposable income, will go to a nice restaurant or stop at a local coffee shop for a slightly more expensive cup of coffee.  But not if the inconvenience of parking precludes me from getting back to my car without my coffee getting cold.  If you eliminate the meters, the 5,000 or 50,000 DT employees will gobble up all the onstreet parking.  And there aren't too many people who are going to spend a half hour trying to figure out parking to get that $4 latte.

Chris that's an a-hole picture and offensive.  Parking at a meter means you accept the risk associated with overstaying your time.  If you aren't willing to accept the $15 ticket for defaulting on your agreement to abide by the rules, DON'T PARK THERE.

Offensive? Are you kidding me? It was (obviously) meant to be tongue in cheek...

And FWIW, we already settled this debate, didn't we? I choose not to enter the agreement, and I don't go down there to have to worry about asinine rules and BS tickets, and neither do most other people. As a result, downtown office space has a nearly 90% vacancy rate, most of the small businesses have closed, all the major tenants are bailing, and like I said soon the meter maids will have the whole place to themselves. Clearly your policy ideas really worked wonders!

[simms3]

And I do agree with singejoufflue (your profile name is to hard to spell btw).  When I park at a meter I usually give mysefl 15 or so additional minutes just in case my stay is longer, but sometimes I take my chances and don't pay at all.  In those cases I would be upset initially with a ticket, but I would realize it's my fault.  Tickets aren't too much of an inconvenience if you can pay online.  If you have to trance over to the muni courthouse then it becomes more than a $15 hastle.

[ChriswUfGator]

And I do agree with singejoufflue (your profile name is to hard to spell btw).  When I park at a meter I usually give mysefl 15 or so additional minutes just in case my stay is longer, but sometimes I take my chances and don't pay at all.  In those cases I would be upset initially with a ticket, but I would realize it's my fault.  Tickets aren't too much of an inconvenience if you can pay online.  If you have to trance over to the muni courthouse then it becomes more than a $15 hastle.

The problem is that most meters are 45min or 1hr maximums, which isn't enough time to do much of anything really. Why not make them 3 or 4 hours at a minimum? It's not like there is any shortage of parking down there, who would it possibly hurt? The nonexistent small businesses that were already driven out by the very policies I'm arguing need to be changed? Come on...

It's a mess. Given the supply/demand situation for parking, and given the hurdles facing downtown redevelopment, I see no valid reason (other than greed) to charge for parking at all. There is a gross oversupply as it sits. That would stimulate visitors and foot traffic, which in turn would stimulate business development.