New video: History's Worst President

[Ocklawaha]

Yeah, my bad, Never could use this Yankee english. Hee hee[

As for Zinn, I've seen some of the work, but use little of it. My Confederate opinion is based completely on a set of original works by Davis, Lincoln and the Official Records of the War of Rebellion. The more I read, the more I dislike him. I worked with the "other side" at Oklahoma State University, the history professors on the new revision that everything from the first sin in the Garden to the Challenger explosion was the Souths fault. We started to doccument Lincoln's writting and his legal and illegal moves and when it was over, even these faithful worshipers hated the guy! Not that they ever admitted they liked the South or the Southern view of anything, but they really disliked Lincoln. It's a great and controversial subject to inject into any group and is almost always a great way to start a fire. I really enjoy reading the opinions of others on the subject. Our watered down history really shines. Hell we even work up Riverside Gator! "Hello compatriot!"/color]

Ocklawaha

[RiversideGator]

Ocklawaha. 

May I suggest that you check out the works of Howard Zinn, if you havent already.

In the book, "Lies My Teacher Told Me"  He makes a very strong case, backed up by the actual correspondence of the time that much of the 20th Century's criticism of Lincoln rests on the back of Klan revisionism during the 1920s.

IMHO, he presents irrefutable proof that this theory that Lincoln did not feel a moral crusade over the freeing of the slaves is just a bunch of malarky, whose dissemination was approved by Princeton Professor and Imperial Grand Wizard, Woodrow Wilson, during an era where such shocking nonsense as 'Birth of a Nation" was considered documentarian.

Are you acquainted with Zinn's work?

More importantly, almost everything that can be done to fix whatever the sins of Lincoln's administration might have been has already been done.  Very likely without the federal power that he created in recreating the idea of the Union saved us from slipping into South American style oligarchy during the age of the Robber Barons.  Without that federal authority, Teddy Roosevelt would have been impotent, and each of the states would have lined up in order to serve new masters.

That doesnt however address the video.  The real time and now.   

Of course slavery was wrong and should never have happened.  The question is what is the best way to end it.  I prefer the Brazilian way which occurred without a war and so much loss of life.  For midway's benefit, here are the wikipedia entries on the topic: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lei_Aurea
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Brazil

[Midway ®]

Yes, let's have a discussion about the evils of, and how to end slavery. I think that issue has been decisively dealt with.

How about we only go back 2X Ock's age?

[RiversideGator]

Yes, let's have a discussion about the evils of, and how to end slavery. I think that issue has been decisively dealt with.

How about we only go back 2X Ock's age?

Your thread is entitled "History's Worst President".  Thus, I thought we had license to go back to the beginning of the Republic.  Or did you mean, the worst President of the last 7 years?

[Ocklawaha]

Thanks Compatriot, I was just recalling a similar conversation I had with Joseph and the Pharaoh and a large group of friends at a childhood sleepover. When we were all small kids, we would often lay on the rooftop and talk for hours in the moonlight. As we were discussing Lincoln, with a spot of Captain Morgan, two more friends showed up.  Isis and Osiris put their 2 cents in too, Isis always felt like they had the all the answers. So I injected Bush into the conversation and all of hell broke loose. We had Bush and Lincoln pretty well pegged until Sherman, my pet terradactal bit Julius in the butt, sending him into a rage. The more Caesar yelled, the more Marc Anthony, Erwin Rommel, Cleopatra, Montezuma and I laughed. Though they inflict a nasty bite, the way Juluis carried on, you would have thought we gave him the "Sparticus," or something... We never did get back to our discussion of Lincoln, but we did revist Captain Morgan. In retrospect, I guess age has it's lighter side sometimes.

Ocklawaha

[Midway ®]

Actually, the title of the thread is "New Video, history's worst president".

Thats different than me saying That "George W. Bush is History's worst president".

As you may have noticed, that is the title of the video, not an assertion that I was making.


Being the legal scholar that you are, you should be able to understand the difference.

I just was suggesting that we not obfuscate the issue at hand by getting into a protracted discussion on the evils of slavery, or the root causes of the Civil war, although I think that would make a good thread, and everybody would have input for that. Maybe we could even have a reenactment of a key battle or two. You could be the wealthy financier backing the northern forces of aggression.

[fhrathore]

"Northern States did not free their own slaves until 1875, so to claim Lincoln fought to "free the slaves" is pure BS."

Wait, the 13th amendment was ratified by every northern state WAAAAY before 1875 (Mississippi was the last state to do that in 1995!) so your tmieline has some issues ock...

[Ocklawaha]

Stephendare, again, they have all of us convinced "we southrons are the great sinners..." Sorry but Delaware didn't outlaw slavery until Feb 12, 1901!

Not to mention that oriental slavery legal or otherwise, raged right on for another 20 years. You've been to Portland, Oregon, right? Did you visit the slave tunnels? Want to buy a 15 year old China doll? THAT is what the US Government "overlooked" on the West Coast.

Frankly my opinion would upset many, but the nation that nearly exterminated the Native Americans, enslaved the Orientals for child sex and drugs, and allows the Canadians to cross freely but not the little brown people from South of the Border... This very nation didn't have a sudden Heart Fart and decide to lift the Black man from his bonds... If they did it at all, it's because they got themselves into it quite by accident.
For all of you great American humanitarians out there, did you know that Adolph Hitler taught that the Indian Wars were God sent to eliminate the inferior races, and the slaughters under Lincoln were Darwin's theory in it's finest incarnation.

I love this country, it is the BEST in the world, but our history has much to be desired and I won't sugar coat it.

Ocklawaha

[Driven1]

i think the best president was bob dole.

[Midway ®]

Sometimes you remind me of that darling little Ralph Wiggum.

[vicupstate]

Stephendare, again, they have all of us convinced "we southrons are the great sinners..." Sorry but Delaware didn't outlaw slavery until Feb 12, 1901!

Not to mention that oriental slavery legal or otherwise, raged right on for another 20 years. You've been to Portland, Oregon, right? Did you visit the slave tunnels? Want to buy a 15 year old China doll? THAT is what the US Government "overlooked" on the West Coast.

Frankly my opinion would upset many, but the nation that nearly exterminated the Native Americans, enslaved the Orientals for child sex and drugs, and allows the Canadians to cross freely but not the little brown people from South of the Border... This very nation didn't have a sudden Heart Fart and decide to lift the Black man from his bonds... If they did it at all, it's because they got themselves into it quite by accident.
For all of you great American humanitarians out there, did you know that Adolph Hitler taught that the Indian Wars were God sent to eliminate the inferior races, and the slaughters under Lincoln were Darwin's theory in it's finest incarnation.

I love this country, it is the BEST in the world, but our history has much to be desired and I won't sugar coat it.

Ocklawaha

I too would like to see proof that slavery existed past the enactment of the Constitutional Amendment banning it.

Just because a law is technically on the books, or NOT off the books, does not mean that it is enforced or practiced.  We all know there are laws about adultery, horse theivery, and hundreds of non-sensical or centuries out-of-date practices that are still technically in the legal code.   

Just because they were not technically 'illegal' during a certain period, does not prove that such practices were actually taking place during the time in question.  Since the US Constitution supersedes all state laws that conflict with it, such laws would have no weight behind them anyway.   

Had it not been for the Sherman/Grant methods, the South would never have surrendered.  Hell, the Japs didn't surrender after the first Atomic Bomb!   

The very Klansmen/Confederate Apoligists that insist that history has been revised on this subject, have in reality been the biggest perpetrators of white-washing and historical revision. 

I have Confederate ancestory on both sides, but I thank Jesus and Abraham Lincoln mightily for the fact that the South didn't win, because if it had, I would have been born in a third world country.  So would every other native born Southerner.     

BTW, is it true that Jefferson Davis said the SECOND worst thing to happen to the South was Lincoln's assassination?  I've heard that, and the source is probably more credible than the Neo-Confederate nonsense you have polluted our minds with today.             

[RiversideGator]

Ock:  There was definitely not actual slavery in Delaware in 1900.  The law legalizing slavery may have been technically on the books till 1901 but it was a dead letter.  In other words, it had no legal force or effect because of the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments to the US Constitution which banned slavery and all its vestiges throughout the entire United States and its territories. 

[Ocklawaha]

I too would like to see proof that slavery existed past the enactment of the Constitutional Amendment banning it.

Easy to do, look into Tombstone, or any western history and you'll find shiploads of oriental women coming in for the expressed purpose of servicing American men in cribs... In fact THIS is where the new slang for home came from. "A CRIB" is/was a prison cubical that held young slave women. This aspect of slavery wasn't even attacked until after 1900, in fact it wasn't closed down completely until the 1920's though vestiges of it STILL remain.

Your missing my point in your pro-Yankee praise, I don't like any of it. My own family plantation released the slaves (19 of them) in the 1830's. That deal included the family name and family land. Today when I meet my "black family" I feel they are MY FAMILY... why? Ever heard of DNA? Tell me doctors, when a wet nurse feeds a baby is any of her DNA passed on? If so, what does that make me and millions of other Southrons?

Just because a law is technically on the books, or NOT off the books, does not mean that it is enforced or practiced.  We all know there are laws about adultery, horse thievery, and hundreds of non-sensical or centuries out-of-date practices that are still technically in the legal code.

The information I got was from the Delaware Historical Commission, and someone who was working on a paper about slavery that just didn't go away. Though by that time they CYA with volunteer servants, I suppose the girls in the tunnels in Portland and San Francisco were "Volunteers too?" What I'm saying is that Lincoln didn't really do a damn thing for the black race except by default. Freedom is a great thing, One of Hitlers closest advisers was a Jewish mystic, not only was he free, he nearly ran the country until jealous factions in the SS took him out. So would we thank Jesus that Hitler did so much for this Jewish man? NOT! Hitler was an animal (and that insults animals) but sadly Lincoln wasn't much better, in spite of how many crayon pictures  or little paper "black top hats" you made in Kindergarten.

Just because they were not technically 'illegal' during a certain period, does not prove that such practices were actually taking place during the time in question.  Since the US Constitution supersedes all state laws that conflict with it, such laws would have no weight behind them anyway.

TRUE? Federal law says POT is illegal but California, Oregon, Alaska and parts of Arkansas don't think so... The law is on the federal books and they have the "right" to raid the suppliers, but somehow the drugs keep on moving. Don't think the pull of illegal labor practices, or free sex was any less at any time in history.  

Had it not been for the Sherman/Grant methods, the South would never have surrendered.  Hell, the Jap's didn't surrender after the first Atomic Bomb!

Grant certainly taught the US army how to fight, with drunken and horrible tactics you just keep throwing fresh troops at the problem until the other side runs out of men. Let's see at Cold Harbor he wasted 9,000 men in a hopeless frontal assault in 20 minutes. Sherman never saw a civilian that he didn't want to torch... the man had some serious issues and humanity wasn't one of them. Wars then and now are played by rules, Lincoln-Grant-Sherman-Sheridan-Custer were in such disregard for the accepted practices that they nearly picked a fight with the UK and the rest of the world in the "Trent Affair". BTW, one of those commissioners seized aboard His Majesty's Ship was a certain Mr. Mann! There was no humanity or tact in this gang of 5 and had they put their approval on the rape, murders and burning of civilians today, they would all be arrested for war crimes. Want to talk about the JAP'S? They were surrendering, the firebombing of Tokyo was enough, I have read most of their major war works and all agree that had we just backed off and given them some time, surrender would have come within 30 days or so. The reason it didn't is because communication was so destroyed that the island nation was hearing "he said, she said..." from all quarters. The Navy was gone, the Army crippled, the naval air fleet down to a few squadrons without experienced pilots and the Army air force in shambles.... No way they could have continued another 60 days. From this point of view I suppose Dresden was also a act of divine justice?

The very Klansmen/Confederate Apoligists that insist that history has been revised on this subject, have in reality been the biggest perpetrators of white-washing and historical revision.

I love that the accepted facts of the War of Yankee Aggression were rather pro South from the day of Surrender until the 1970's-80's when the revisionist started building a case for the United States to attack the sins of the South. I'm sure "Roots" and the South African mess played into our national mind and with the death of Doctor King, we had to elevate Lincoln and the cause of freedom, lest we look like we were as bad as South Africa. Then when someone with a traditional view of the war comes along, suddenly they are labeled Klansmen and racist. We toss out Hitler and Japan for good measure and shame the truth behind Neo-Nazi name calling. Sorry fellas, but I've never been a Nazi or a racist... I'm in an interracial and international marriage, with my 1/2 breed children. No need to white wash anything, just go to the original sources and read it for yourself. As I said, no way a country bent on extermination of Indian's, slavery for not only black races but many others of various nationality's including whites. A place where slave owners were themselves black, white and mixed races. A country that under one government gave infected blankets to natives (small pox) then under another marched their native allies off on a trail of tears, not equaled until Japan did it to us on Bataan. Determined to take the Southwest from the inferior Spanish and the San Juan islands from the arrogant British... We didn't just wake up one day in 1861 and see a terrible injustice and march off on a holy crusade to right the wrongs of Dixie. Some people I suspect get their history from Hollywood, God help us.

I have Confederate ancestry on both sides, but I thank Jesus and Abraham Lincoln mightily for the fact that the South didn't win, because if it had, I would have been born in a third world country.  So would every other native born Southerner. 

"Had the South won its independence, it would have quickly eclipsed the United States in industrial might due to it's favorable tax and tariff system. Slavery was fading fast around the world and would have soon ended without the blame for the incredible hardships of the Southern people. The Confederacy would have become a rich and prosperous nation" Memoirs of U.S. Grant, US President. It is sad to see a son or daughter of Dixie thinking so little of their own abilities and that of their ancestors. While it can be said I would not lift a finger to assure slavery for anyone, I would fight even today to protect my Florida from any invader foreign or domestic. Had I died at Olustee or St. Johns Bluff or McCoys Creek or Brick Church with a rifle in my hand, under the stars and bars, I can't think of a more noble reason then defending ones homeland.   

BTW, is it true that Jefferson Davis said the SECOND worst thing to happen to the South was Lincoln's assassination?  I've heard that, and the source is probably more credible than the Neo-Confederate nonsense you have polluted our minds with today.

Certainly Davis knew the death at that period in time did no one any good. Davis was a US Senator before the war and is the  main reason for the existence of the Smithsonian today. His book the Rise and Fall of the Confederate Nation is a great read and covers much of what we are all discussing today. Stephendare, or you or anyone else is welcome to borrow my copy, provided you don't think hearing from my president, will pollute your mind with nonsense. But then as you call into question my credibility then label me a Neo-Confederate for taking an unpopular stand, I could see where fear of reading anything that didn't agree with your version might scare you. By the way, for future reference... I am a many-times published Historian and Author, "Neo-Confederate"? Hell no! I am a UN-reconstructed Southerner, call it what you want, but I am as Confederate as Robert E. Lee, and I bet the fact that I don't "hate" anybody, really drills you but then...Eventus stultorum magister, or maybe history is just not y'alls game, not everyone likes facts when their painful... I know, lets have a spelling contest!

Ocklawaha

[Eazy E]

So, it is no wonder that he dislikes the center-right Bush.

Center right? 
Sorry, there is absolutely not factual way one can refer to GWB as centrist in any meaningful way.  Corporate greed/crime, death penalty, religion in politics, war, economic matters, judicial matters-- any subject, he is in no way centrist at all.  And herein lies the problem, Repubs want to make this a debate of opinion, when it is plainly factual: the guy is so far right he makes staunchies like McCain look centrist. 

[Charleston native]

Bush is far right?

Yeah, that's why he signed the bill to ban incandescent lightbulbs in 2012. If anything, he's a corporate leftist masked as a center-right.