JTA Transit Ridership Numbers

[tufsu1]

correct DoctorK...and I'm not hiding behind anything Chris.

The fact is that work trips account for less than 25% of all trips (even on weekdays) made by people.....the desire to use transit for work trips is higher than other trips, primarily because of congestion (especially in major cities).

People are less likely to take transit for non-work trips....although auto occupancy rates are usually higher for non-work trips (how many people do we squeeze into a car to go to a football game).

Bottom line...transit use is less than 10% in just about every major city....even in NYC, it isn't close to 50% for all trips.

[ChriswUfGator]

But are you talking about all mass-transit or just mass-transit used for commuting to work and only work?  Wouldn't that lead to a discrepancy in the numbers that you and Stephen and TUFSU are arguing about?

Bigger cities have better and more available mass transit that allows them the options to go places other than to their places of employment.  Can't say that Jax offers anything much that's similar, no?

Tufsu is trying to hide behind that, but it doesn't add up.

Most people tend to spend more time at home on weekends, and when many people do go out it's with family, friends, to go get groceries, to go shopping (e.g., many trips that tend to require a vehicle). Also, people's trips on weekends often take them outside of their metropolitan areas, where public transit isn't even an available option, e.g. day trips, visiting friends and family, going to a different city, etc.

Tufsu is trying to argue, without mentioning these differences in options and rider behavior patterns, that we should be factoring weekends into the ridership figures as well. Which, for the reasons I stated above and for many others, is total bunk. That is a meaningless comparison that just serves to further confuse the issue by masking how bad JTA's ridership really is. And of course the 800lb gorilla in the room is that, on weekends, of course there will be less riders. Nobody is going to work. Duh. I can't believe he's even trying to argue that.

[ChriswUfGator]

I'm not hiding behind anything Chris....the fact is that work trips account for less than 25% of all trips made by people.....the desire to use transit for work trips is higher than other trips, primarily because of congestion (especially in major cities).

People are not less likely to take transit for non-work trips....although auto occupancy rates are usually higher for non-work trips (how many people do we squeeze into a car to go to a football game).

Bottom line...transit use is less than 10% in just about every major city....even in NYC, it isn't close to 50% for all trips.

Tufsu, I'll acknowledge your manupulations here and ask you a simple question:

What is Jacksonville's percentage of commuting ridership then?

Since you want to keep arguing that we're talking about apples and oranges, let's make it apples to apples .

[ChriswUfGator]

Oh and let me save you the time of having to do what I know you're going try next, don't bother trying to compare Jacksonville's commuting ridership with other cities' total ridership, including weekends, etc. No more of your false comparisons. Let's compare apples to apples here, what is Jacksonville's percentage of weekday/commuting riders then?

We already know the largest 38 US cities are all over 10%, and some are up at 50%. So what's JTA's figure?

I've acquiesced. Let's use your figures then. What's the number?

[tufsu1]

well Chris...I estimated that the other day....based on projected unique riders (not double/triple counting trips) of 15,000 per day and estimated 400,000 workers commuting every day in Duval County, we would 3.75%

That said, the 15,000 figure is based on average daily figures (for the whole month), so weekdays would likely be a bit higher.....I'm guessing Jax. is somewhere close to 5% for commuting via transit.

And yes, I agree with all of you who believe that number is paltry...we can, should, and must do better!

[tufsu1]

TUFSU.

You literally do not know what you are talking about.

Stephen...it is just not worth arguing with you....I've known this for a long time, yet you've still been able to drag me in....that is my fault, I should know better.

I'm done with this one.

[ChriswUfGator]

Ok now I'm really confused.

So I went back through the links provided and the links that Stephen and Dan provided were ALREADY apples to apples comparisons. Tufsu had me convinced that I must be missing something, but I've read back through all the information and the stats are using the same criteria to assess Jacksonville as they used for the other cities. Tufsu had me thinking that somehow we were arguing commuting ridership for other cities vs. total ridership in Jacksonville, but this isn't the case, the figures used the same criteria for all the cities.  

So what exactly is your point here tufsu? Both in total ridership and in commuting ridership, we suck.  

[ChriswUfGator]

well Chris...I estimated that the other day....based on projected unique riders (not double/triple counting trips) of 15,000 per day and estimated 400,000 workers commuting every day in Duval County, we would 3.75%

That said, the 15,000 figure is based on average daily figures (for the whole month), so weekdays would likely be a bit higher.....I'm guessing Jax. is somewhere close to 5% for commuting via transit.

And yes, I agree with all of you who believe that number is paltry...we can, should, and must do better!

But didn't JTA's own figures (that do double and triple count riders) only work out to 10k-12k daily riders?

[Singejoufflue]

Is it possible to stop playing "quien es mas macho" for five minutes and offer solutions or keen insight to the transit woes in Jacksonville?

Has anyone else here ever relied on transit as their ONLY means of getting around? And no, a 30-day stint doesn't count.  For 6 years, I took transit MORE on weekends than I did during the week.  4-6 trips Mon-Friday (to and from work) and AT LEAST 15 on the weekends.  This spanned commuter rail, buses and light rail.

The key to successful transit is convenience.  It, currently, is inconvenient to live in Riverside and commute to the Southside via JTA.  However, it is very convenient to take the trolley from Five Points to Downtown, and yet the trolley shows a 10% decline in service for the last fiscal year.

The fact JTA is categorized with Wichita and Omaha (both a fraction of our population and a quarter of our area) in transit use is ABYSMAL.

[ChriswUfGator]

Is it possible to stop playing "quien es mas macho" for five minutes and offer solutions or keen insight to the transit woes in Jacksonville?

Has anyone else here ever relied on transit as their ONLY means of getting around? And no, a 30-day stint doesn't count.  For 6 years, I took transit MORE on weekends than I did during the week.  4-6 trips Mon-Friday (to and from work) and AT LEAST 15 on the weekends.  This spanned commuter rail, buses and light rail.

The key to successful transit is convenience.  It, currently, is inconvenient to live in Riverside and commute to the Southside via JTA.  However, it is very convenient to take the trolley from Five Points to Downtown, and yet the trolley shows a 10% decline in service for the last fiscal year.

The fact JTA is categorized with Wichita and Omaha (both a fraction of our population and a quarter of our area) in transit use is ABYSMAL.

I agree JTA is woefully incompetent and needs reform, as reflected in the ridership figures. However, you need to watch using your own usage patterns as an exception trying to be the rule. Most people don't share your transit usage patterns weekday vs weekend. The figures show this.

[Doctor_K]

People need to realize how badly their tax dollars and this essential part of city development has been mismanaged.

But since JTA can't be bothered to post their most recent budget figures, we are unable to realize just that.

Hello rock, meet hard place.

[ChriswUfGator]

People need to realize how badly their tax dollars and this essential part of city development has been mismanaged.

But since JTA can't be bothered to post their most recent budget figures, we are unable to realize just that.

Hello rock, meet hard place.

Yeah that's the biggest part of the problem, JTA has no accountability.

They don't even release the data you need to get an accurate idea of how badly it's being bungled. We know that JTA's entire system is FUBAR, but the second half of the question is WHY?

JTA would have you believe it's always because they're broke. E.g., we can't afford bus shelters, can't afford longer operating hours, can't afford to pay the drivers, can't afford to invest in rail, hell they claim they can't afford anything except lavish executive salaries and half-million-dollar studies conducted by their friends that always wind up indicating JTA is doing everything right despite all evidence to the contrary.

I want to see the ACTUAL NUMBERS. I want to know, presently, how much money is going down the drain over there.

[Singejoufflue]

My apologies for being 4 years late to this conversation.  I wasn't a resident; however, I've taken the bus in Jacksonville since 1996 when I worked at Regency Mall & used it every trip I came home over the past 6 years...so I am a consumer, not bystander on this front.  I have read MANY posts from the past several years to glean some insight before I tossed in my two cents, and sadly they also devolve into bickerfests. With that said...

People need to realize how badly their tax dollars and this essential part of city development has been mismanaged.

People know. But they don't care. That is the issue at hand.  If the citizens of Jax are willing to throw money at one of the state's largest homeless population, they are also willing to throw money at a small transit system for the few thousand who use it.  Makes them feel better about themselves. So, where is the massive campaign targeted toward the middle class extolling the virtues of convenient, clean, cheap, environmentally friendly mass transit?  Who do I talk to about that? 

BTW, here is a great report by APTA on transit demographics via on-board surveys from 2000-2005.
http://www.apta.com/resources/statistics/Documents/transit_passenger_characteristics_text_5_29_2007.pdf

Of note: 81.2 percent of trips are taken by persons who ride 3 or more days per week
            Sixty percent of public transportation trips do not include a transfer
            Commuting to work...account for 59.2 percent of all transit trips reported
            Less than one-third of public transit rider households are "carless"

I would like to know how that compares to Jacksonville.

[ChriswUfGator]

Of note: 81.2 percent of trips are taken by persons who ride 3 or more days per week
            Sixty percent of public transportation trips do not include a transfer
            Commuting to work...account for 59.2 percent of all transit trips reported
            Less than one-third of public transit rider households are "carless"

I would like to know how that compares to Jacksonville.

Simply put, it doesn't.

JTA has run things into the ground. JTA views its own system as a form of welfare, rather than any truly viable public transit option, and treats its customers and the taxpaying public with such disdain that its users are those people who are forced to ride the bus because they have no other choice. They have constructed a "last resort" instead of actual public transportation in Jacksonville. Much of their energy is devoted to convincing the public that there is either no problem at all, or that this kind of thing is par for the course. There seems to be no desire to actually fix the problem.

[Singejoufflue]

The CTA was mismanaged and failed on every front including a substantial fare hike in conjunction with massive service cuts that were documented in the paper DAILY.  We discussed it at the water cooler and waiting on the platforms. And yet, we still rode anyway, knowing there was corruption, incompetence and general stupidity. Tourists and businessmen still took it because it was a viable option and was ubiquitous, even with the cuts. The passengers saw a tangible benefit taking transit over driving.  Where is this being promoted in Jax?