Amendment 4

[floridaforester]

I almost fell out of my chair the other day when I received an email from the NE FL Assoc of Realtor's governmental affairs director regarding Amendment 4 describing the opposition as a "grassroots coalition" working to defeat A4.   I simply had to respond to her that describing a group made up of Florida's development interests was about as far from grassroots as physically possible and to describe it as such was ludicrous.

I am a Realtor specializing in Jax's downtown n'hoods, but first and foremost I grew up as a birdwatcher, majored in forestry and conservation and worked for The Nature Conservancy.  Of course the powerful development interests want to see it defeated, heaven forbid that all the tax money that existing neighborhoods have paid into the system come back to keep up existing infrastructure when they believe we should be subsidizing unsustainable development on Florida's existing natural or agricultural lands.

The whole comprehensive plan process has been corrupted with disastrous results for our state.  Just look at Nocatee which has an entirely new designation created for it to exist...New Town.  Right in the middle of tens of thousands of acres of active timberland.  I'm pretty sure that is exactly what the comp plan was designed to prevent.  Amend. 4 might not be perfect but anything has got to be better than the fetid mess we have now.

[tufsu1]

If approved, when would it actually become law?

some believe immediately...others believe that the Legislature would be required to enact rules (which means next July at the earliest).

[ChriswUfGator]

The more I think about this the more I fail to see the downside in voting yes.

[riverside planner]

Awesome quote in Abel Harding's column in the T-U today:

“Direct democracy is the crack cocaine of government. It feels really good while you’re doing it, but you’re left wondering 'What did I just do?’”
- Sean Snaith, director of the Institute for Economic Competitiveness at the University of Central Florida, in response to a question on Amendment 4 at Wednesday’s JCCI Annual Meeting.

[north miami]

I almost fell out of my chair



The whole comprehensive plan process has been corrupted with disastrous results for our state.  Just look at Nocatee which has an entirely new designation created for it to exist...New Town.  Right in the middle of tens of thousands of acres of active timberland.  I'm pretty sure that is exactly what the comp plan was designed to prevent. 

Nocatee was in fact a direct assault on established St.Johns County Future Land Use Map.
And "they" got away with it,and ushered in a mad rush of substantial deviation.
I suggested that the rush was to get the credits while the 'gettin was good...and it just kept going on and on.
And the fact that these details are "news" in late 2010 is but one hint to the grave situation and needed call for definitive action.

[north miami]

Awesome quote in Abel Harding's column in the T-U today:

“Direct democracy is the crack cocaine of government. It feels really good while you’re doing it, but you’re left wondering 'What did I just do?’”
- Sean Snaith, director of the Institute for Economic Competitiveness at the University of Central Florida, in response to a question on Amendment 4 at Wednesday’s JCCI Annual Meeting.

So I guess we are to assume that decades of citizen participation in local growth planning is for naught.,and the oversight role of the citizen's State Department of Community Affairs simply a euphoric excercise.

Let the Professionals handle it!!!!

By the  way,reference to JCCI and FTU could be cause for well deserved yawn (if not at times downright alarm or disappointment) according to outlook or assessment of effective engagement..

[trigger]

ok folks...here's what is going to happen if Amendment 4 passes....the Legislature will basically wipe out Growth Management and Comp. Planning laws and start all over.....now while that actully seems like an admirable idea (and our laws seriously need a rewrite), do you trust the Legislature to get it right?

There's an election in one month for State Legislators: vote accordingly.

"If approved, when would it actually become law?"

The homebuilders will try to litigate it to death first as they did in St. Pete's Beach, which will eventually result in the above legislature process.

[riverside planner]

Awesome quote in Abel Harding's column in the T-U today:

“Direct democracy is the crack cocaine of government. It feels really good while you’re doing it, but you’re left wondering 'What did I just do?’”
- Sean Snaith, director of the Institute for Economic Competitiveness at the University of Central Florida, in response to a question on Amendment 4 at Wednesday’s JCCI Annual Meeting.

So I guess we are to assume that decades of citizen participation in local growth planning is for naught.,and the oversight role of the citizen's State Department of Community Affairs simply a euphoric excercise.

Let the Professionals handle it!!!!

By the  way,reference to JCCI and FTU could be cause for well deserved yawn (if not at times downright alarm or disappointment) according to outlook or assessment of effective engagement..

The key term here is "direct democracy".  The United States is a democratic republic/representative democracy, not a true "direct democracy".  Citizen involvement in planning is an important, even if admittedly sometimes frustrating, part of the growth management process.  Citizens should inform the process, and in an ideal world, decisions would be based on weighing all sides and evaluating the evidence.  We obviously do not live in that ideal world, but Amendment 4 would be a clear case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. 

[JeffreyS]

Oh I am sure the Single Mom working two jobs if she can get them to make ends meet has all the time in the world to address all of the details of future concurrency issues on the other side of her county.

  Amendment 4 where whoever has the best TV commercials win.

[CS Foltz]

+1

[tufsu1]

The homebuilders will try to litigate it to death first as they did in St. Pete's Beach, which will eventually result in the above legislature process.

I think you need to do some research....most of the litigation in St. Pete Beach came from the Hometown Democracy folks when the citizens actually tried to vote FOR some development.

[tufsu1]

The more I think about this the more I fail to see the downside in voting yes.

ok...try this...

the Springfield car wash issue generated lots of controversy and significant public input at City Council....meanwhile, land use ammendments allowing thoiusands of new homes on the sparcely populated northwest side of the County drew virtually no public input.

this is the future of Amendment 4...proposed development/redevlopments in existing urban areas will be very hard to get approved.

Also, there are those who believe infrastructure projects (like streetcar) would also have to go to referendum as these types of facilities are often shown on the future land use map

[ChriswUfGator]

The more I think about this the more I fail to see the downside in voting yes.

ok...try this...

the Springfield car wash issue generated lots of controversy and significant public input at City Council....meanwhile, land use ammendments allowing thoiusands of new homes on the sparcely populated northwest side of the County drew virtually no public input.

this is the future of Amendment 4...proposed development/redevlopments in existing urban areas will be very hard to get approved.

Also, there are those who believe infrastructure projects (like streetcar) would also have to go to referendum as these types of facilities are often shown on the future land use map

The carwash is a pretty excellent example of what is wrong with the current system, actually. The tail is wagging the dog. The vast majorty of the neighborhood supported it, but a handfull of bitter people from SPAR in bed with developers, together with their out-of-touch councilperson, sandbagged it anyway.

As far as rail, you have a valid point. I doubt the suburbanites in Mandarin would vote to build streetcars in Riverside. And I doubt we'd vote to do anything in Mandarin. I suspect maybe there needs to be more localization, perhaps narrow the focus into local and regional planning boards. Again amendment 4 isn't necessarily the answer, but it's no more FUBAR than what we've got now. The ultimate solution is probably some type of caucus system involving districted planning boards, so that each area has the opportunity to represent its interests. Under the current system, especially in a consolidated city/county government like Duval, the view from above is so large that the total picture gets lost in the shuffle.

Also, I don't think we need to approve every individual project with referendums, and I don't think that's the point of the amendment. I think the amendment is designed to ensure the landuse plans aren't drastically changed despite widespread community outrage. E.g., no more Nocatees getting slipped in the back door.  I don't think the intent, nor the implementation, of this amendment would actually have us voting on whether Joe Schmoe can build a gas station down the street, or Sally Jane can put up a new mailbox, or whatever. This is more of a macro consideration. At least that's what I'd hope. But I guess there are no guarantees that things will turn out as intented when you're dealing with bureaucracies.

[Dog Walker]

The caucus method you describe is much how the Comprehensive Plans are developed in the first place.  When Amendment 4 passes you can bet that more attention will be paid to the development of the Plans.

I think they can be revised every ten years or so.  One of our planners on the forum will have to confirm/correct this time frame.

[ChriswUfGator]

The caucus method you describe is much how the Comprehensive Plans are developed in the first place.  When Amendment 4 passes you can bet that more attention will be paid to the development of the Plans.

I think they can be revised every ten years or so.  One of our planners on the forum will have to confirm/correct this time frame.

Well if this just governs amending multi-year master landuse plans then it sounds like all the shrieking that everyone is doing on this forum, and everwhere else, about how Amendment 4 is going to make you have a voter referendum to put up a new mailbox is nothing more than made-up hysterics and bullcrap. Typical. I hate politics.