Would you ride a train to Gainesville?

[Ocklawaha]

This is a transportation subject that needs to be revisited here at Metro-Jacksonville. One wonders why this has not come to some form of public attention long before now. With the United Rail Coalition, The National Association of Railroad Passengers, Amtrak, JTA and City hall, all local, yet not a chirp-in-a-carload from this gallery of "experts". Well, "geepers Mr. Wilson, even Gomer could figure this one out..." damn the luck, Gomer retired back to Mayberry in North Carolina, leaving us with Gilligan and the Skipper to plan our future with St. Johns river commuter boats.


Gainesville Rail Tales:

Gainesville, is a strange animal. In 1890 one could travel by train to Jacksonville, hence to Green Cove Springs. At Green Cove Springs, a transfer was made from the Jacksonville, Tampa and Key West Railroad train, to the South-Western Railway of Florida. The SW was a narrow gauge line which followed the hill country from Green Cove Springs, to Sharron, Goldhead State Park, Putnam Hall and Melrose. At Melrose, another transfer would have to be made to Lake Santa Fe steamboat. At the west end of the lake was a canal and outlet to the upper Santa Fe River. IF the water was deep enough the boat could travel to Keno, where a transfer to a stage could be made for Gainesville. Sometime later, the Seaboard Air Line Railroad's purchased it's mainline down from Baldwin, to Waldo, Gainesville and Cedar Key. They rapidly expanded South from Waldo, leaving Gainesville on an increasingly abused branchline. The Atlantic Coast Line Railroad, bought into the game with the purchase of the Florida Southern, another twisting narrow gauge line, and the Jacksonville Southwestern, a local lumber road. Stringing these together to form the competition to the Seaboard until the merger that became CSX spelled the end of Gainesville and mainline railroading. Today Gainesville is served by a network of former secondary mainlines, reached over a portion of the old ACL from Alachua, which in turn is reached via a new branchline from Starke.


The DEL MONTE a similar train in California, 1970


FLIGHT OF THE SILVER GATOR?

Why Not A Train To Gainesville?

In a day and age when urban rail is becoming vogue, and Bus Rapid Transit or BRT is the new battle cry of the highway side, is it time to revist the short distance train? Take a look at the famous "Del Monte", a one time daily train from San Francisco to Monterey and Pacific Grove. The train was well patronized and ran for 100 years, until a quirk in the Amtrak laws left all trains under 150 route miles in a commuter category and unavailable for rescue. Trains operated by commuter agencys kept right on rolling through Amtrak day back in 1971, all longer distance trains that made the cut switched over to Amtrak on that same date. Yet everything in between fell through the cracks. Today, the stage is set to obtain Amtrak-Federal-State and Local grants to revive many of these runs. The people in Monterey, California are already in a campaign to restore the "Del Monte".

Here in Jacksonville, we have the CSX mainline West from the Union Terminal to Baldwin, and hence Southward to Starke. At Starke, a well maintained branchline swings off for Alachua and Gainesville. The right of way into downtown Gainesville is intact, the tracks stop about one mile from the Station. With the "Gator Bowl" at Jacksonville Municipal Stadium, with Shands Hospital in downtown, and with a new Shands teaching campus planned for the Northside, this could become a vibrant and busy little 60+ mile train route. We need to revisit this route, revive some of our history and tie downtown Jacksonville to downtown Gainesville... Let's just not call it "The Seminole".

Even though we are being "studied", we are NOT moving forward... This photo of Amtrak's Private business car on a National Corridor study train, should wake this City the hell up! But then who am I to rant?

So it is a plum ripe for picking. Gainesville and Jacksonville are natural partners for a DMU type service, twice daily. Amazing as it might seem nobody in Tallahassee or in Jacksonville seems to be thinking this way. We are going to build a temple to bus transit, a bus freeway system, for an all bus transit system, complimented by Gilligans water ferry and "We would like to do rail... SOMEDAY!" (JTA DIRECTOR 2007) Our City needs to heed the advice of a couple of wise old sages and "BE BIG".

Ocklawaha

[Driven1]

just curious, why the all-caps?

[thelakelander]

A Jax-Gainesville link makes sense, considering UF is the closest this city will ever get to having a Tier 1 university to benefit from.  Plus there's already a relationship with Shands.  However, unless a pot of gold is found at the end of the rainbow, I would spend money establishing a local system first.

As for JTA and BRT, we have to find a way to poision the funding mechanism for BRT, both at a local and federal level.  This may mean putting a rail solution on the backburner and focusing on efforts to prove that the BRT plan (if not changed as JTA mentioned a month ago) is an outright boondoggle (which is not difficult) and that Jax would be better off without it.

[Ocklawaha]

Gate just the old hippie of the group who happens to be 1/2 blind... Consider my all-caps as a silent protest (yeah, one more protest) over fine print that I can't see! I also used to put my screen name in all bold purple 40 pt text under every post... well until they took away my crayons. And these guys claim to be modern liberal thinkers! HA! hee hee

Ocklawaha

[Ocklawaha]

True Lake, our immediate fight is with the local BRT. However, the Gainesville route would or should fall under AMTRAK and the USDOT-FDOT funding prizes that are being put into the new Rail acts. In other words, from a world apart from JTA or the  FTA, we suddenly have the opportunity to start-up new short distance state sponsored service. The states will not start this unless there is a LOUD noise supporting it. As Gainesville falls at the end of a branchline today, it is not likely to make anyones list in spite of being a natural partner city of Jacksonville. Thus I am suggesting that REGIONAL RAIL, IE: Gainesville-Jax, Tallahassee-Jax, Pensacola-Tallahassee-Jax, Jax-Tampa, Jax-Melbourne and Jax-Orlando, should get into our sights. JTA is our official transportation agency, and City Hall is the political power point locally, yet all we hear is ZZZZZZZ. If I can kick the hornets nest, I'm game for a go at promoting our first network of State sponsored AMTRAK trains.
(See Amtrak Law, Section 402-B and C ALSO: Title II: Amtrak Reform and Operational Improvements 427-28)

Ocklawaha

[Joe]

When I went to grad school at UF, I can guarantee you that I would have taken a train (with a good route) from UF to Jacksonville at least once a week, round trip. I can also guarantee you that there are thousands of students who would consider doing the same - especially if the ticket were in the $20 range.

However, there would be some obvious problems with such a route.
- The direct Gainesville to Waldo route has long since been demolished. Like you said, you'd have to route the train through Alachua, which adds totally unnecessary time and distance to the trip.
- The suburbs of Jax and Gville are quite close. I've actually made the total commute in 80 minutes. You must have an optimal route that is DIRECT, and FAST - otherwise people in the Southside and Westside will just prefer to keep driving.
- You have a real dilema with track selection once you get closer to Jax. If you go up through Orange Park, you'll have to waste time at lower speeds, and use portions of right-of-way that will remain single-tracked. If you go up through Baldwin, you bypass huge population zones (and potential stops) in Orange Park and the Westside.

Personally, my commute was 73 miles door-to-door - which took between 80-120 minutes depending on traffic. With a Gainesville - Alachua - Downtown Jax route I would have probably been looking at a 85-95 mile train ride, plus a 5-15mile backtrack depending on where the stops are. And someone would have to pick me up in Jax.

So really, a train would have to be very fast or very cheap to be competitive.

[lindab]

So really, a train would have to be very fast or very cheap to be competitive.

Joe: You are very right. I commuted to Gainesville for two years from Jax. Although I was worn out with the commute, time was of the essence and a slow train would never have done.

Now, I would pay any amount of money to train it to Tallahassee, one of the most boring and long drives in the world. Either you tough it out with the truckers on I-10 or you go the slo route on US 90. That would be a good route for the Seminole.

I always thought the route that the high speed rail chose for Titusville to Disney to Tampa had merit.

[DetroitInJAX]

I think the train would be a marvelous idea.  a jax-gainesville-orlando service even.. a jax-daytona-orlando-tampa run...... it'd make getting around florida a helluva lot easier!

[JeffreyS]

You can get to Orlando with Amtrak if we had good transit to Amtrak.

[Ocklawaha]

I think it's worth a year of testing... JAX-GAINESVILLE via the current route isn't really bad at all. I have ridden the train down to Waldo many times from Jax, and frankly it's 79 mile per hour track for most of the way. A suburban stop in West Side, another in Baldwin, Starke, Alachua and Gainesville would be a real pleasure. The Gainesville-Starke Segment is good for about 45 MPH, but it is short. Since Gainesville-Alachua-High Springs have more or less grown together, doing the jog into Alachua would serve a bigger market without really holding things up. A short train such as the "DEL MONTE" (the California photos above) or something like the Colorado Railcar DMU train, with a lounge/snack counter would probably run full most of the time. Certainly game days, special events and student functions would fill it.

As a planner, I'd suggest 2 trains each way a day for starters, with a 3rd added at the first sign of acceptance. The trains would work on a Morning and Evening schedule, and later on a Morning-Mid Day-Evening schedule:

2 trains each way daily

Trains make all station stops, including flag stops at suburban/rural stations

consist: Locomotive, Coach, Coach-Lounge (light food items)
or
DMU with coach, and business class, plus a lounge (light food items) section

Your observations about speed are well taken. The train would not have to be high-speed or even faster then the typical auto trip, nor would it have to be more direct. Bottom line, it would have to be competitive - similar - less stressful - more comfort - more workspace. A survey of travelers done by Greyhound/Trailways in the mid 1980's showed that passengers via AIR-BUS and RAIL were not nearly as concerned about the route or the speed as they were departing and arriving at a precise time. So even if our train was slightly slower then your speeding car, as long as it advertised arrival in Jacksonville at 6:03 PM and it rolled to a stop EVERY DAY at 6:03 PM, the battle is 1/2 won.



First Coast RR, already has a "passenger department!"

There is another "hidden" benefit to introducing passenger trains to the Starke - Alacuha segment. That segment contines on to Dunnellon and Crystal River. There is a former line from Dunnellon to Inverness and Brooksville, which is a rail trail. From Brooksville to Tampa the track remains a straight shot. If the rail trail gap were relaid, and the Tampa segment rebuilt, this could be the re-start of the old WEST COAST ROUTE from Jacksonville to Tampa and the Bay area. Further? The company that operates this line from Alachua South, is the same company that runs the St. Marys-Yulee-Fernandina Beach FIRST COAST RAILROAD. Not only are they a shortline, meaning they are usually easy to work with, this company happens to be very much PRO-PASSENGER and they in fact own "ORANGE PARK STATION".

The same information and at least half of the route are also good for the Lake City-Live Oak-Tallahassee run.
If these trains are added and become a popular and accepted part of our regional fabric, future expansion of schedules, stations and trackage, could then address other possible routings, such as Starke-Waldo-Gainesville. (it would be nice to pass through Waldo without the traffic ticket! LOL) 

Ocklawaha[/u

[JeffreyS]

Can you show a diagram of the runs you are talking about?

[Ocklawaha]

Sure thing Jeffery, (I don't want to SHOCK anyone) but as soon as I'm back from church!

Ocklawaha

[gatorback]

I'd ride the train to Gainesville after all I rode the bus to and from when I was a student at UF. The ride home was a little gross on those old buses when I came home for the holidays. Any chance of extending the train to Austin, TX?  Or, is there a train already to Jacksonville from Austin?

[Ocklawaha]

Gatorback, since Amtrak was started on a shoe-string, and effectively wiped out 2/3 of all remaining passenger trains on the day it started, we no longer have ANY real connections to the west. The original Amtrak system map included the FLORIDIAN, a train cursed to follow the CSX's horrible line from Jacksonville-Waycross-Valdosta-Thomasville-Dothan-Montgomery-Birmingham-Nashville-Louisville-Chicago. The Floridian route was largely unsignaled (45 MPH), poorly maintained (Waycross-Montgomery) and competed with coal trains and Freight head on (Montgomery-Louisville) which promised to keep the track about as rough as possible. Sadly the train followed the route of one-time streamliner "THE SOUTH WIND" ... but the old line isn't what is used to be.

There was a connection at Chicago for the TEXAS CHIEF, which followed the old Santa Fe mainline to KC-Newton-Wichita-Guthrie-OKC-Denton-Ft.Worth-Austin-San Antonio or Ft. Worth-Arlington-Dallas-Houston. The chief didn't have the Floridian's track and schedule troubles, and stayed SOLD OUT through most of it's life. Under Republican pressue to "Make a profit", Amtrak was ordered under President Jimmy Carter to eliminate 4 major trains:

The Floridian, Chicago-Florida
The Champion, New York-Florida
The Texas Chief, Chicago-Texas
The North Coast Hiawatha, Chicago-Seattle (via Southern Montana)

It was a stupid move from Washington, a sad day for transportation that was hardly noticed by the media and a death sentence to a couple of the routes for all of time. DUMB! Not a peep of protest from Florida!

The loss of the Sunset Limited, Orlando-Jacksonville-Baldwin-Lake City-Tallahassee-Pensacola-Mobile-New Orleans-Houston-San Antonio-El Paso-Tuscon-Los Angeles, betwen Orlando-Jacksonville-Lake City-Tallahassee-Pensacola-Mobile and New Orleans, was a death blow to our "AUSTIN-JACKSONVILLE" connection.

WHAT I PROPOSE:

I think we need a joint state, grass roots effort to put through trains back on this route. In Florida the line is the route of the former "GULF WIND" which is a fine name that carrys some historical weight. I would like to see a joint state effort at a GULF WIND CORRIDOR.

JACKSONVILLE
BALDWIN
LAKE CITY
MADISON
MONTICELLO
TALLAHASSEE
QUINCY
CHATTAHOOCHEE
MARIANNA
CHIPLEY
DE FUNIAK SPRINGS
CRESTVIEW
PENSACOLA
MOBILE
GULFPORT/BILOXI
BAY ST LOUIS
NEW ORLEANS

Something like a double or triple daily service on all or part of this line. I would NOT call for a through train to Los Angeles, as that leaves the EAST end captive to the needs of the LOS ANGELES schedule. If we created a mini-corridor, with 3 daily trains in each direction, they COULD offer through cars for Los Angeles, or Dallas, Albuquerque etc... This is the magic of trains, the ability to break them up for different destinations. I also think this is the key to the GULF WIND ROUTE.

AMTRAK complained that they won't restart it due to low ridership. Gee how many people are riding from Marianna to Chipley at 3 AM? How about Baldwin to Lake City at 1 AM? THIS IS WHY, we need our own corridor with our own schedules. 2 fast daylight trains and a complimentary night train that ties to the SUNSET for Los Angeles.

THAT'S MY RANT for TODAY!

Ocklawaha

[gatorback]

OK.  It was the Sunset Limited I thought I could still take.  Wasn't that the train that ran off the tracks and into a swamp after a barge or tugboat hit some pylons of the bridge near New Orleans?

Isn't there a Tropicana?  It runs refers of OJ to the north?