Downtown Bus Rapid Transit Project Moving Forward

[uptowngirl]

No one rides the dang thing-is there really some study done showing more peeps will ride the bus with this plan in place? I am not buying it.  Instead of taking away parking for new bus lanes-but in bike lanes, people will actually use those.

[tufsu1]

actually there are ridership projections...and believe me, FTA can be pretty tough in reviewing those...and without them, FTA would not have approved the study and funded the project

[Ocklawaha]

yawn

We are all very impressed with the apparent depth of your concern TU, perhaps you didn't know it but...

Apparently, contrary to the view we have that if someone yawns at you he or she is being disrespectful, the opposite is true.

The conference heard that if people yawn at you, it means they fancy you. That is because a yawn can indicate a wide range of emotions and states: interest, stress, the desire for sex.

We owe this precious knowledge to respected Dutch academic Wolter Seuntjens. Seuntjens came up with the theory of the “erotic yawn” after noticing that sexologists were often consulted by people whose partners yawned when they were in bed.

SOURCE: "International Conference on Yawning” held in Paris.

Amazing to me that you can get all hot and bothered by Bus Rapid Transit!

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

No one rides the dang thing-is there really some study done showing more peeps will ride the bus with this plan in place? I am not buying it.  Instead of taking away parking for new bus lanes-but in bike lanes, people will actually use those.

you can force feed riders into it by modifying the bus system. By the same token, you can do this for rail. The major difference is your ridership pool will be smaller (choice riders will still elect to drive) and it WILL NOT spur transit oriented economic development.  However, that's not a goal of the transit authority which is why someone in local government and influence outside of JTA will have to step up to the plate.

[tufsu1]

thanks Ock...and yes I do "empathize" with CS 

[tufsu1]

No one rides the dang thing-is there really some study done showing more peeps will ride the bus with this plan in place? I am not buying it.  Instead of taking away parking for new bus lanes-but in bike lanes, people will actually use those.

you can force feed riders into it by modifying the bus system. By the same token, you can do this for rail. The major difference is your ridership pool will be smaller (choice riders will still elect to drive) and it WILL NOT spur transit oriented economic development.  However, that's not a goal of the transit authority which is why someone in local government and influence outside of JTA will have to step up to the plate.

and unfortunately Lake, Federal rules prohibited cities from seriously counting economic development benefits when applying to get money for transit projects....it was all about efficiency (speed) and ridership....which is why streetcrs weren't eligible for funding until a few months ago.

[jacksoninjax]

This is in response to the JTA’s decision to build designated bus lines downtown as well as bus “rapid transit” (an oxymoron if there ever was one) lanes throughout the city.

I agree 100% with those of you who believe that JTA's bus transit boondoggle is the wrong move. Extensive bus service is fine for cities like New York, Chicago and Boston because they have strong urban centers with a healthy mix of residents and workers who don't mind riding the bus for 5, 10, or 20 blocks to work, lunch, a play, or to dinner.  Bus service is also vital to lower income persons who have no other means of transportation.  Jacksonville is probably not unique in the fact that the majority of regular bus riders are in the lower socio-economic range. For these individuals, a trip to the doctor or grocery store can take hours longer than for someone else with a car. But what other choice do they have?  Very few, if any. 

Unlike Jacksonville, many high income professionals in more urban/dense cities actually choose not to have cars (or use them sparingly) because they can either walk or perhaps take a relatively short bus ride to their destination.  Those with the financial means to choose to ride a bus do so because it is more convenient than driving, it takes a relatively short commitment (average of 15-30 minutes) and the bus stop is close to their origination and destination (within walking distance).  An excellent example of JTA’s success with this type of scenario is with the Riverside trolley. It is more convenient than driving (and finding a parking space) and it is a relatively short trip for downtown workers or residents to make. 

Here is what the city and JTA fail to acknowledge or are simply ignoring.  I have been emphasizing the word choose for a good reason. In order to make expanded bus service profitable, the JTA will have to convince more of the middle class sector to choose to abandon their cars and ride the bus to work and/or recreation (dinner, football game, theatre, etc.).  Mark my words-this is NOT going to happen in Jacksonville. 

Don't get me wrong. I live in Jacksonville. I like it a lot.  It has many great qualities. But there is NO way that a sufficient number of Jacksonville residents will choose to ride the bus because it fails the criteria mentioned above. It will not be more convenient than driving because it will require a prohibitive time commitment due to the overall disconnect between employment, entertainment, and residential areas. 

I really don't like to be negative and I try to look on the "bright" side of things but it blows my mind that the “powers that be” at city hall and JTA actually believe this is going to work.  If anything, take part of the money for this project and actually finish the Skyway Express (SE) to the sports complex. Talk about a major jump in ridership. Building additional bus lanes downtown will only compete with the SE, which is the worse thing that can happen.

Instead of taking a meandering bus ride from parking areas on the fringes of downtown (i.e. the convention center) to the sports complex (which is what currently happens), people could ride the SE from the Southbank and convention center directly to the sports complex.  And, if there were a couple of stations along the way, people could actually stop at the Landing or Bay Street for a drink or bite to eat and then hop back on the SE for a game or concert. Currently, buses whisk people away from the sports complex as quickly as possible, bypass the few night clubs and restaurants that downtown does have, and then drops them off at a parking lot on the edges of downtown.  It’s just as bad for people who park near the stadium.  Instead of a traffic flow that encourages them to stop on Bay Street or the Landing after a game, we have barricades and one way exits that only encourage, if not force, people to leave downtown after a game or concert. Does this make any sense?

Downtown business owners should be furious with the city and JTA for making it so difficult for people to explore downtown after a game or concert because of the current situation.  Is there any wonder that our downtown is struggling and cities like Charlotte have a thriving downtown nightlife?  Jacksonville city leaders and JTA, I implore you to reconsider this ill fated bus plan and go back and finish what your started with the Skyway Express.  By connecting downtown and the Southbank with the sports complex (2 or 3 sq. miles) via the SE, you will make it easier and more enjoyable for visitors and residents to explore our beautiful “river city by the sea.”  If the city and JTA can’t succeed in connecting this 3 square mile area, the heart of our city, what makes them believe they can connect the entire city through bus rapid transit. 

[JeffreyS]

I know the JTA has been planning and pursuing BRT for more than ten years and they do not want that time and effort to have been wasted.  When they started, getting fixed rail was less of a possibility and they want transit in Jax.  These things do not change the fact that BRT in the JTA's current and past concepts are a bad idea and those ten years have been wasted and we should move on.  Fixed rail is infinitely better for the community tried and true.  Commuter rail and streetcar are proven modes that the public love lets not try to reinvent the wheel. Time spent and the JTA's perception that buses pretending to be trains are the easiest way to get Federal dollars should not take precedent over doing what is best for Jax.
All the BRT projects should be tabled until after extensive implementation of commuter rail and streetcar. Then if we need some BRT designed to support the fixed rail systems we can look at them.

[thelakelander]

We should not forget that the original studies that have grown into the proposed BRT corridors were pretty inaccurate.  We pointed out many fallacies in those reports during our early years.  Whatever comes out of it needs to be vetted thoroughly.

[JeffreyS]

It stinks the JTA wants to go about this in the wrong order.  We have become such a good group here ready to take up their cause if they would go for the fixed rail solutions first.

[tufsu1]

from what I understand most of the folks who attended the meeting left in favor of the project....if you feel otherwise, you need to voice your opinion to JTA at these meetings or via e-mail....not on this site alone.

[fieldafm]

from what I understand most of the folks who attended the meeting left in favor of the project....if you feel otherwise, you need to voice your opinion to JTA at these meetings or via e-mail....not on this site alone.

I didnt show up until late... so maybe there was a deluge of people that showed up at 430PM that I didnt know about.  But that certainly wasn't the case from the group of people present while I was there.

But you're right, more people should email JTA their comments.  The public meetings for the Riverside trolley were pretty empty as well.  The opportunity to engage is certainly omnipresent.  The people I have encountered within JTA have been very friendly and open to feedback.

[JeffreyS]

from what I understand most of the folks who attended the meeting left in favor of the project....if you feel otherwise, you need to voice your opinion to JTA at these meetings or via e-mail....not on this site alone.

I have sent many emails to the JTA and others and attended few meetings.

[thelakelander]

from what I understand most of the folks who attended the meeting left in favor of the project....if you feel otherwise, you need to voice your opinion to JTA at these meetings or via e-mail....not on this site alone.

Being there for at least half of it, I'd be suprised if there were more than 15-20 people total, not counting the MJ related groups, JTA representatives and consultants.  I'd also say that even I'm not against improving that bus corridor with many of the concepts they proposed.  Timing and cost are my concerns. 

Also, I'd be suprised if anyone outside of us understands the potential negative impact the movement of this project could have on the adjacent commuter rail proposal.  Shine the proper light on it and the event becomes a JTA tar and feathering session.

[spuwho]

Unlike Jacksonville, many high income professionals in more urban/dense cities actually choose not to have cars (or use them sparingly) because they can either walk or perhaps take a relatively short bus ride to their destination.  Those with the financial means to choose to ride a bus do so because it is more convenient than driving, it takes a relatively short commitment (average of 15-30 minutes) and the bus stop is close to their origination and destination (within walking distance).  An excellent example of JTA’s success with this type of scenario is with the Riverside trolley. It is more convenient than driving (and finding a parking space) and it is a relatively short trip for downtown workers or residents to make. 

Here is what the city and JTA fail to acknowledge or are simply ignoring.  I have been emphasizing the word choose for a good reason. In order to make expanded bus service profitable, the JTA will have to convince more of the middle class sector to choose to abandon their cars and ride the bus to work and/or recreation (dinner, football game, theatre, etc.).  Mark my words-this is NOT going to happen in Jacksonville. 

As someone who has worked in an very urban core, I would like confirm these comments.

The most important criteria for transit for these urban dwellers when I spoke with them was "easy access to the airport" because they really didn't need a car to get around where parking is expensive (as well as insurance).

- Build the critical high speed link to the airport
- Start zoning for the critical urban core of office/commercial, retail and residential (mixed use).
- Develop enhancements (NOT GIVEAWAYS) to developers to meet deadlines, no up front cash!

I agree on the Sports Complex access as well. The highest use of transit by non-traditional transit users is for (duh!) sporting events.

Jacksoninjax hit it on the head.