What A Real Transit Rail System Looks Like: The Station

[thelakelander]

The most important aspect of this is community building.  No bus based mode is going to stimulate walkable oriented development like rail based modes have a history of doing.  There's no need to invest millions on demonstrating a result we already know.  If Jax wants to turn away from sprawl, that process will have to include an investment in fixed transit.  With this in mind, the BRT vs. rail discussion dies a quick death.

A quick death, in Jacksonville, perhaps. Some town, somewhere, is going to look at BRT, at the already existing infrastructure for automotive transit, and at the practical realities on the ground. They're going to partner with a BRT-love group, get the funding and be off and running.

I get the need for fixed rail transit. I get that fixed rail transit builds TOD and vice-versa. (And I totally get why JTA's BRT plan suuuuuuucks.) And I mos def get that MetroJacksonville.com is dead-set against it for Jacksonville (believe me, I've seen it brought up, only to be followed by a near-instant "nip that spit in the bud" rebuttal.) I get it.

I think you're missing the point.  Most of us aren't against BRT or reliable bus service.  This concept is something that should be done regardless of whether Jacksonville rolls out rail or not.  However, the JTA plan is bad and the idea that BRT can substitute as a true sustainable community building engine is a bad one.  As long as that comparison is not being made, there's really no issue.

I'm just saying that at some point, some mid-sized American metro is going to "get BRT" correct: correct for the infrastructural realities, correct for the way we live now and the way we'll need to live in 25 years, correct for the budget, and correct in design and implementation. We haven't seen this yet. We've seen international variations of "heavy-rail using buses." We've seen international and domestic examples of "Diet light rail." And just here last week, we saw Kansas City's "premium bus" variant of the model. But we haven't seen a city, county or metropolitan statistical area rethink their transit system using BRT, and most importantly, using BRT to take advantage of the existing infrastructure.

I agree.  However, getting it right still won't stimulate TOD like a fixed transit will.  That's my biggest argument when people attempt to compare these modes.

I default to Broward here, because I'm a native Miamian (had the Metrofail been BRT, we could have had four lines in lieu of the one, or the one line much cheaper with just as much corruption making the money vanish,) Broward is small and compact, is entirely built for the car, and my parents live there now, so I'm familiar.

On the flip end, had Metrofail not been built, there would be no Downtown Dadeland.  

Broward is basically encircled by highways: there are basically four quadrants created by the highways. In addition, as is the practice in South Florida, most of the "local roads" are 6, 8, 10, 12 lanes wide. All of this is already there. They've already paved paradise and put up a parking lot.

So, working with what's already there, Broward could use HOV lanes (or dedicate lanes) on the highways, creating a grid of express bus service, probably initially as a loop or line, and with success in taking people off the roads, direct stop-to-stop service. At each of these express stops, you'll find a major "Diet light rail or street car" line, using the existing infrastructure (or, you know, huge assed roads built for the Space Shuttle,) along with infrastructural improvements involving signaling, dedicating lanes and the rest to navigate these quadrants. At certain segments along the way, local lines meet the trunks.

No argument here, from a reactionary transit based point of view where capital cost are a major factor.  However, the solution could change once land use integration and a need to stimulate a more walkable land development pattern enters the picture.  Imo, it really boils down to the environment a corridor is intended to serve and what type of vision that certain community would like to grow into in the future.  With that said, you could end up with BRT and rail based corridors in the same sprawling communities that are designed to complement each other.

Mind you, I don't think this solves the problem. It's just a first step. That ugly-assed, 10-lane "local road" is going to be just as effin' ugly with "Diet light rail" running down the center of it." As is the highway overpass and the massive parking lot in front of Big Lots. (Ah, Big Lots and Kash-N-Karry. I miss Florida.) But...if Broward could just convince 10% of its population to hop on the BRT in lieu of driving, it would be a success. 170,000 cars off the road. And that's before any TOD starts taking place. If this system could make getting around the entirely suburban model that is Broward, that's pretty awesome. And then, with that many cars off the road, they could take over more lanes for BRT, or take over more lanes for BRT as a prelude to rail (so that service wouldn't be stopped.)

This is what I view to be one of BRT's strengths (and one that hasn't been explored remotely yet,) is this flexibility. Somebody is going to get that, and get it right and be the model. That's all I'm sayin'. (Try not to throw the diseased eggs at me.)

Not throwing eggs.  However, my view comes from the economic development and community building side of things.  That flexibility is the fatal flaw from the development perspective.  So at the end of the day, it really boils down to what a community wants and is willing to pay for.  If the focus is strictly moving people from point A to B for the cheapest cost, then one option stands out.  If that community's goal and desire is to use transit as part of a method to stimulate a pedestrian friendly environment along a transit spine in a sea of suburbia, then the solution changes.

[AaroniusLives]

aaronius are you in DC as well?

Yes. I've lived here for nearly four years now. In Georgetown. I'm just a transit nut.

However, the JTA plan is bad and the idea that BRT can substitute as a true sustainable community building engine is a bad one.  As long as that comparison is not being made, there's really no issue.

Agreed. What BRT might represent is a stop-gap in the plan to go from suburban model to a TOD model. What it might represent is a practical way to get more people using mass transit, even if the suburban form doesn't change with its implementation. What it might represent is a purely transit solution: how to make, en masse, an existing and costly infrastructural investment, work effectively for present and future realities. Is it a substitute for light rail? Nope. Does it community-build as effectively? Thus far, nope. But it might be the first step on the way there.   

However, getting it right still won't stimulate TOD like a fixed transit will.  That's my biggest argument when people attempt to compare these modes.

We have yet to see a comprehensive attempt at BRT, as mentioned in the original post. We have yet to see a comprehensive blending of all things BRT (Diet Heavy Rail, Diet Light Rail, Diet Streetcar,) with all things possible-BRT (highway express, "point-to-point flights," for a start,) implemented in the United States, so while my intuition agrees with you, I'm not going to make a definitive statement that BRT "won't stimulate TOD" because I don't believe we've seen a true implementation of the concept.

On the flip end, had Metrofail not been built, there would be no Downtown Dadeland.

That may well be true, but Downtown Dadeland represents TOD where nobody is using the "T." Kind of represents a mixed result: higher density and more tax revenue alongside a white elephant turd.

[Ocklawaha]

At least one thing remains from our first heyday as the railroad capital of the deep south...

Well, to be fair, Jacksonville was and is a major railroad junction, but I think Atlanta claimed and claims the capital moniker.

It's true that Atlanta had a couple more railroad companies string track through town and thus it became a major freight terminal for the whole south. It was the crossroads of the Confederacy at least until General Sherman burned it down and headed out on I-20 past the Stone Mountain FREEway. My contention is that even with Union Station AND Terminal Station in Atlanta's heyday, it fell short of Jacksonville's passenger trains and volume. In fact from 1919 on, Jacksonville pretty much sprinted ahead and never looked back. Sadly Atlanta destroyed BOTH major downtown stations and today after 20-30 years of constant fighting still can't get a new Transportation Center Terminal off the ground.

With the draw of Florida's millions of annual visitors, many from the EU and train savvy, Jacksonville and Florida in general would be insane for not jumping on this opportunity to lead the nations transportation discussions.

Sadly, I don't think that commuter rail is particularly effective. We've spent so much time over the last 60+ years altering traditional patterns of commuting that it's not as simple as "run rail from houses, where people live, to downtown, where people work." I'm not sure of the study, but most of the country (like 90+ percent,) lives in a suburb and commutes to work in another suburb, driving through other suburbs, also filled with work and people commuting to them from other suburbs. (Again, this is another way in which DC's Metro can't really be the model: the government is located in the "center," and thus guarantees/teed that Washington didn't vacate it's commercial core.

No mass transit is really going to make that great of a dent in highway congestion, but at least it gives the commuter some quality choices. Many towns and cities have rail lines that just don't follow the main traffic trends of the community, as you stated, into and out of suburbia. I believe we are somewhat different and as a market for commuter rail we might be a stellar candidate. Due partly to our rivers and our relitively wild west style history complete with surrounding jungles all of Jacksonville growth tended to follow the tracks. The densest corridors in the city are the southeast and southwest both of which straddle mainlines. The old Seaboard route straight north from downtown not only gets cozy with the airport, but also passes through some of the largest employers complexes, newest shopping and a booming new housing area. The route directly west is more rural and here your rule of thumb might apply, while the first 5-10 miles are incredibly dense, everything beyond is smaller then Mayberry. The redeeming value to the west line is that it can easily end in Gainesville, some 60 miles and a half million persons close. The only missing corridor and the one where we could-and SHOULD do BRT and do it RIGHT is the downtown-beaches routes. Both Arlington Expressway-Atlantic Avenue, and Beach Boulevard followed one-time railroads, railroads which we stupidly allowed to get away. Several attempts have been made to ease the commute for an area that is now fairly solid with development, the Hart Bridge and Comodore Point Expressway were a 1960's effort at beach route relief. The newer J Turner Butler Expressway is another and it actually runs from the FEC RY's Bowden Yard to the beaches a near turn key opportunity for a commuter rail-brt interchange. The newest expressway is the Nocatee Parkway on the county line in southeast Jacksonville, it too will run from the FEC RY to the beach. I-795 is already well into construction and could offer a chance at some sort of transit lanes. Any of these roads would be excellent choices for the BRT system but JTA in it's infinite wisdom has decided at a busway under our monorail and alongside the FEC RY is the best first step!

I'm ducking the eggs right now, but this is where I'd see a BRT advocate finding ground and support. Not for the mega-insane JTA BRT plan. But as a way to demonstrate an affordable mass transit alternative for a metro area of about a million people. 

Exactly my friend!


OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

aaronius are you in DC as well?

Yes. I've lived here for nearly four years now. In Georgetown. I'm just a transit nut.

However, the JTA plan is bad and the idea that BRT can substitute as a true sustainable community building engine is a bad one.  As long as that comparison is not being made, there's really no issue.

Agreed. What BRT might represent is a stop-gap in the plan to go from suburban model to a TOD model. What it might represent is a practical way to get more people using mass transit, even if the suburban form doesn't change with its implementation. What it might represent is a purely transit solution: how to make, en masse, an existing and costly infrastructural investment, work effectively for present and future realities. Is it a substitute for light rail? Nope. Does it community-build as effectively? Thus far, nope. But it might be the first step on the way there.

There is no affordable stop gap solution when talking about economic development.   A few years back, Houston turned away from this thinking when they discovered that the "stop gap" solution would basically amount to paying for two systems and $600 million more than just investing in LRT in the first place.  There is a ton of precedence out there that one mode (fixed transit) helps stimulate a certain style of developmental growth.  On the other hand, everything associated with BRT, is founded and promoted on theory when it comes to TOD.  The capital cost differences of the two aren't not that massive to ignore a well known fact in favor of theory, when it comes to promoting a style of economic development.

However, getting it right still won't stimulate TOD like a fixed transit will.  That's my biggest argument when people attempt to compare these modes.

We have yet to see a comprehensive attempt at BRT, as mentioned in the original post. We have yet to see a comprehensive blending of all things BRT (Diet Heavy Rail, Diet Light Rail, Diet Streetcar,) with all things possible-BRT (highway express, "point-to-point flights," for a start,) implemented in the United States, so while my intuition agrees with you, I'm not going to make a definitive statement that BRT "won't stimulate TOD" because I don't believe we've seen a true implementation of the concept.

This equates to spending hundreds of millions in hopes of doing something it has not been successful in stimulating in America (sounds like the skyway demonstration project). This is telling, because a well designed dedicated busway will cost you just as much as expensive forms of rail, with eliminates the affordability or stop gap position.  

The affordable solution is one that basically equals better and more reliable bus service.  I'm a fan on the affordable solution, however I understand that it won't stimulate transit oriented development.  However, that's not it's purpose.  I think our transit authorities do us a disservice when they paint and sell it as something it isn't.  While Jacksonville can certainly invest in some affordable BRT corridors, they should not be viewed as a substitute or interim solution for rail.  Instead, both should be incorporated into an overall vision and designed to complement each other in the short and long term.

On the flip end, had Metrofail not been built, there would be no Downtown Dadeland.

That may well be true, but Downtown Dadeland represents TOD where nobody is using the "T." Kind of represents a mixed result: higher density and more tax revenue alongside a white elephant turd.

Metrorail is a single line 22 mile corridor in a city that did not initially integrate it properly with complementing land use regulations.  Nevertheless, between it and Metromover, +97,000 people are using it a day on average.  Again, I'm coming from the economic development side.  It can't be a white turd if its spurring billions of extra dollars and tax increase revenue by stimulating TOD.  You flat would not have gotten that with BRT and this can be seen locally with the busway heading to Homestead.  With that said, +22 miles of elevated heavy rail in Miami was overkill.  They could have constructed a much more extensive system by building LRT or streetcar and stimulated more TOD for a cheaper cost.

[fieldafm]

With that said, you could end up with BRT and rail based corridors in the same sprawling communities that are designed to complement each other.

Lake, how would you redesign the Jax BRT plan to complement the proposed commuter rail lines in the 2030 mobility plans?  That was one of my main questions/contentions in the comment forms at the BRT meeting.

[AaroniusLives]

My contention is that even with Union Station AND Terminal Station in Atlanta's heyday, it fell short of Jacksonville's passenger trains and volume. In fact from 1919 on, Jacksonville pretty much sprinted ahead and never looked back. Sadly Atlanta destroyed BOTH major downtown stations and today after 20-30 years of constant fighting still can't get a new Transportation Center Terminal off the ground.

And boy, Atlanta's growth and transformation into a global city was completely stopped by the end of...oh, wait.

Metrorail is a single line 22 mile corridor in a city that did not initially integrate it properly with complementing land use regulations.  Nevertheless, between it and Metromover, +97,000 people are using it a day on average.  Again, I'm coming from the economic development side.  It can't be a white turd if its spurring billions of extra dollars and tax increase revenue by stimulating TOD.  You flat would not have gotten that with BRT and this can be seen locally with the busway heading to Homestead.  With that said, +22 miles of elevated heavy rail in Miami was overkill.  They could have constructed a much more extensive system by building LRT or streetcar and stimulated more TOD for a cheaper cost.

It's a huge, massive, stinking white turd. It's an American transit agency's go-to for "what not to do." It blows so many chunks it's not even funny. Moreover, your math is a little misleading. Around 60,000 are using MetroFail. Around 35,000 are using Metromover, with most of those being direct transfers to or from the MetroFail. Let's assume most of these are round trips...that's what...like 48,000 people a day? That suuuuuuuuucks.

As for the busway, it stretches from the edge of the Dadeland Edge City through flat-out, full-borne suburbia. The line has increased ridership, even though it's cheap and located off a crowded and ugly stretch of US1. 

[thelakelander]

Lake, how would you redesign the Jax BRT plan to complement the proposed commuter rail lines in the 2030 mobility plans?  That was one of my main questions/contentions in the comment forms at the BRT meeting.

If I had my way, I'd run bus lines from rail stations into neighborhoods and major destinations that aren't adjacent to them.  JTA's proposed BRT North and East corridors are good examples of this.  This would extend transit accessibility throughout the city and not place us in a situation where we may have to sacrifice one mode for another to get FTA funding assistance.  BTW, I don't consider JTA's plan as BRT.  All they are providing us with is reliable bus service.  Imo, this can be achieved without begging the feds for money at the potential expense of rail.

[thelakelander]

It's a huge, massive, stinking white turd. It's an American transit agency's go-to for "what not to do." It blows so many chunks it's not even funny.

I thought that was our skyway.  Anyway, I'm not going to defend the decision they made to implement heavy rail.  I've already stated they could have went LRT or modern streetcar, saved a whole bunch of money and still stimulated more sustainable transit oriented development all over that city in the process.  Nevertheless, you can't deny it hasn't attract significant TOD investment around its stations in the last decade or so.  You'll be hard pressed to find a bus line of any kind in this country that has enjoyed the TOD success of the skyway, much less Miami's Metrorail.

Moreover, your math is a little misleading. Around 60,000 are using MetroFail. Around 35,000 are using Metromover, with most of those being direct transfers to or from the MetroFail. Let's assume most of these are round trips...that's what...like 48,000 people a day? That suuuuuuuuucks.

A lot of them also use buses.  However, it's not my math. That's how the transit agencies report their numbers.

As for the busway, it stretches from the edge of the Dadeland Edge City through flat-out, full-borne suburbia. The line has increased ridership, even though it's cheap and located off a crowded and ugly stretch of US1.

Add sidewalks and enhance bus frequencies and you'll increase ridership along major corridors.  However, I'm not talking about increasing ridership.  I'm talking about increasing and stimulating additional pedestrian oriented development and sustainable community building.  The South Miami-Dade Busway has not done that and neither have expensive urban oriented dedicated busways in the U.S., such as those in Pittsburgh and LA.  That's not a knock on BRT, it's just not the type of transit investment that really spurs TOD.

[JeffreyS]

BRT should not compete with a future fixed rail line it should be designed to feed it.

[ben says]

That Moscow station....daaaaaamn that's gorgeous. See, the commies did do something right!

[thelakelander]

Sorry guys, that Moscow station has nothing on ours!

[BackinJax05]

The AmShack had 12 trains a day? Damn. Once upon a time Amtrak was halfway decent. The most I remember were 4: The Champion, The Floridian, The Silver Meteor, and The Silver Star.
In defense of Amtrak, they really do the best with what they have. The problem is Amtrak is managed by the government. And as we all know, anytime the government tries to correct a problem they only make things worse.

[finehoe]

The problem is Amtrak is managed by the government. And as we all know, anytime the government tries to correct a problem they only make things worse.

Unlike, say, the privately-managed airline industry which has been so profitable...

[fsujax]

maybe we could hang chandeliers and make it look a little nicer! By the way, the Moscow station is nice, but did anyone notice the train that was sitting at the platform? looked like a Soviet era one.

[Adam W]

maybe we could hang chandeliers and make it look a little nicer! By the way, the Moscow station is nice, but did anyone notice the train that was sitting at the platform? looked like a Soviet era one.

I guess they haven't bothered much with upgrading rolling stock since the collapse of the USSR. I guess it's appropriate - Soviet trains for Soviet stations.

Check out the Pyongyang Metro:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyongyang_Metro