Shipyards

[Noone]

 I do like some of your views NorthMiami(as an avid kayaker, I welcome any additional public launch points but I'd personally never try to kayak downtown.

I'll be kayaking downtown in the morning about 7:15 putting in at RCB then heading over to the Northbank. May make it down to the Pier. When the city takes back ownership the Pier needs to remain separate. It can be used for passive and recreational access.  

[Ocklawaha]

Mercado y Puerto, Cartagena, COLOMBIA


Mercado-Central, Santiago de Chile

Nice first shot Bornnative!

The idea for a public quay - seafood market and such would dovetail nicely with a remote location for a branch of the farmers market. The local fishing industry even at it's best would only be a small but interesting attraction, the same could be said of the crabbing business. I live near The Outback Crab Shack in WGV and often hang out at the landings on 6 Mile Creek. On any given day one can see a couple of commercial fishing boats come or go - MAX. These craft are typically about 23-28 feet long and like their big cousins they will have a stack of traps onboard usually in the 10-20 trap range. As one might gather from this, it is hardly a stellar industry, but as an aside to a larger market on the water concept it would be a very interesting niche.

Commercial charter boats are the one single fishing industry that could thrive and grow from this edge of downtown location. Deep Sea charters can adjust their fare to reflect the extra hour between Mayport and Downtown. The sheer Convenience of boarding downtown should attract a goodly number of operators. Big operations such as the off shore shrimpers and trawlers would be insane to go downtown due to the inability to hike prices to cover those extra miles and time.

Within the realm of fishing and pleasure boating we are already a strong player internationally, a quay with a scattering of marine suppliers, fishing, boating, tackle, boats, motors, and trailers would be a harmonious union with the public pier concept. Though I know Lake is not a big fan of launching plans around big box stores such as Bass Pro, this is one chain store that could stand alone or anchor a whole quay-village.

You are dead on about the barge traffic no longer moving downtown, but it does move up river (South) from Jacksonville. The traffic is considerable but there is nothing moving in that circuit that would an attraction to shoppers or curious sightseers. Thousands of pounds of steel, concrete, sand, gravel or bunker fuel oil jsut aren't sexy. There has been a desire at MJ to recreate the old downtown wharves with their freight markets, sales floors, and such, but it is just no longer possible. Transportation has changed so drastically that no longer are small coastal freighters or barges carrying loads of Zenith TV sets, Admiral Refrigerators, depression glassware or bath towels from cannon mills in the Carolina's. Those industries are largely gone, consolidated, merged, centralized, world market oriented and thoroughly digitized and containerized. NOBODY ships loose cargoes anymore, the economics are just not there.

I'd like us to move forward SLOWLY on this and aim at the whole 9 yards, aquarium, maritime museum, museum ship(s), big box specialty stores, quay, public market.

As a postscript:
I'd also be in favor of knocking out a segment of the wall along Hogan's Creek on this property just to create a safe DOWNTOWN landing for canoes, kayaks and very small sail boats. For those who don't know the hobby, landing a canoe on a concrete boat ramp is like trying to wash your feet with boots on. Ramps make it very easy to flip a paddle boat and once flipped have a nasty surface perfect for cracking heads, arms or legs.


OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

Though I know Lake is not a big fan of launching plans around big box stores such as Bass Pro, this is one chain store that could stand alone or anchor a whole quay-village.

I'll have to take a closer look at it but I think a big box would take up most of that site.  Although its 44 acres, only around 28 or so is above water.  Looking at the site, its pretty narrow and split in half by Hogans Creek.  To accommodate a large big box and its parking, you're looking at removing those piers and filling in the waterfront (making the recently completed bulkhead work useless).

The local fishing industry even at it's best would only be a small but interesting attraction, the same could be said of the crabbing business. I live near The Outback Crab Shack in WGV and often hang out at the landings on 6 Mile Creek. On any given day one can see a couple of commercial fishing boats come or go - MAX. These craft are typically about 23-28 feet long and like their big cousins they will have a stack of traps onboard usually in the 10-20 trap range. As one might gather from this, it is hardly a stellar industry, but as an aside to a larger market on the water concept it would be a very interesting niche.

Farmer's market aside, this is what I've been trying to say.  When I mention "fisherman's wharf", I'm not talking about something large scale, just where a few fisherman could enter the river, dock boats and unload them.  Even if the entire site were converted into a park, this is still something that could give that space a unique feel.

Commercial charter boats are the one single fishing industry that could thrive and grow from this edge of downtown location. Deep Sea charters can adjust their fare to reflect the extra hour between Mayport and Downtown. The sheer Convenience of boarding downtown should attract a goodly number of operators. Big operations such as the off shore shrimpers and trawlers would be insane to go downtown due to the inability to hike prices to cover those extra miles and time.

Within the realm of fishing and pleasure boating we are already a strong player internationally, a quay with a scattering of marine suppliers, fishing, boating, tackle, boats, motors, and trailers would be a harmonious union with the public pier concept.

So how does everyone feel about this?  This is another example of using portions of the site for marine based uses, which is basically my whole point.

There has been a desire at MJ to recreate the old downtown wharves with their freight markets, sales floors, and such, but it is just no longer possible. Transportation has changed so drastically that no longer are small coastal freighters or barges carrying loads of Zenith TV sets, Admiral Refrigerators, depression glassware or bath towels from cannon mills in the Carolina's. Those industries are largely gone, consolidated, merged, centralized, world market oriented and thoroughly digitized and containerized. NOBODY ships loose cargoes anymore, the economics are just not there.

The MJ desire (it's really only been talked about by Stephendare & I) is to see a number of organic marine based uses clustered along this waterfront.  I don't think any envisions Jaxport moving in and turning the site into a container terminal or placing a paper mill on it.  On the other hand, that MJ desire is a concept where a mix of marine based uses stimulates synergy for additional use.  For example, you have a public space where commercial fishing industry could possibly enter/exit the river.  The pure presense of these two uses (no matter if you only getting two or three boats) presents the opportunity of fresh catch to be purchased at that space (even if its just a guy with an umbrella and ice box).  That would be an example of an organic use that comes from mixing a industry with the public.

[fieldafm]

I woke up ridiculously early today to scout out some of the crabbers along the Ortega River.  I'm going to talk to one of the guys in more detail on Saturday.  One of the guys I spoke with as I was standing on the Ortega River Bridge lol, had some interesting insights on the industry.  Some of the traps in that area are from out of town guys, and the percentage of crabs they sell locally isn't very high.  One of the guys gave me a lead to follow up on which I hope to do Saturday depending on this hellacious work schedule Ive been subjected to 

In the meantime, something to chew on... small cruise ship mooring/terminal for the Northernmost pier on the site.  Jax is home to one small cruise line: http://www.epicjourneys.com/AmericanCL.html.  You see it from time to time docked near the Hyatt.

[fieldafm]

Commercial charter boats are the one single fishing industry that could thrive and grow from this edge of downtown location. Deep Sea charters can adjust their fare to reflect the extra hour between Mayport and Downtown. The sheer Convenience of boarding downtown should attract a goodly number of operators. Big operations such as the off shore shrimpers and trawlers would be insane to go downtown due to the inability to hike prices to cover those extra miles and time.

Both very good points.

[Ocklawaha]

BASS PRO seems to be one of those unique stores that is willing to work within a theme. A live waterfront for boat visitors, and mass transit might be just the ticket.











All of the above scenes include a Bass Pro.
Nothing like a store that doubles as a tourist attraction. Lake you know I'm with you 100% on this, I'm kicking in some curve ball concepts just to create a "What If?"

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

Bass likes to be near major highways....LaVilla would be more approriate for them than the Shipyards site

[Ocklawaha]

Bass likes to be near major highways....LaVilla would be more approriate for them than the Shipyards site

Guess you have obviously missed Branson and OKC's stores. Urban BFE!


OCKLAWAHA

[fieldafm]

Bass Pro has explored this market.  Downtown is not their choice of destination.

[Ocklawaha]

Bass Pro has explored this market.  Downtown is not their choice of destination.

You boys and girls are missing the point. I can damn well gaurintee that "Bricktown" in Oklahoma City wasn't in anybody's sights either, it's all about how the concept is laid out and presented. I wouldn't suggest walking into Bass Pro and saying "We would really like to have a store..."  We will get a hell a lot more attention by creating this mega-marine-quay-port-hotel buzz throughout the retail world, then suggesting Bass Pro could be the major retail anchor.

OCKLAWAHA

[vicupstate]

BPS might be interested in DT if the incentives deal was steered that way.  Put a BPS in Brooklyn.  It could be on the river, on the Riverwalk, at the intersection of TWO interstates, and in the heart of the metro area all in same spot.    

The YMCA site might be one option, they have been looking to move to a new facilitu for years anyway.  of course, the dead Brooklyn Park land is an option as well.

The T-U offices site would be an option, they could use the money out of that asset.  The BPS would bring hotels too.

[tufsu1]

Bass likes to be near major highways....LaVilla would be more approriate for them than the Shipyards site

Guess you have obviously missed Branson and OKC's stores. Urban BFE!


OCKLAWAHA

from what I can tell the OKC store is ajacent to I-40 and I-235....and the Branson store is in the middle of a tourist area (like Destin, FL store).

I think the reality (as has neen noted here many times before) is that Bass Pro Shops would likely locate at SJTC...closer to the beach and adjacent to JTB and 9A...but I would definitely suuport/encourage them to look at the Brooklyn/LaVilla areas.

[thelakelander]

Just playing around at lunch time with Ock's Bass Pro/IKEA talk.

Bass Pro Oklahoma City (in Bricktown, yet directly adjacent to I-40)


OKC Bass Pro & parking overlayed on Shipyards site




Atlanta IKEA


Atlanta IKEA (vertical parking), overlayed on Shipyards site

[Ocklawaha]

Yeah, the OKC store is adjacent to I-40 but the access is pretty poor and somewhat convoluted. It really iS about as complicated trip as coming off I-95, over the Main Street Bridge, right on Bay a few blocks out to the store. Of course the OKC store does have canal access!

Branson is a tourist area without any interstate highways and miles and miles of Ozark Mountain roads. They do have an active airport as does Harrison, over in Arkansas. The country is stunning, but hardly urban, sophisticated or Avant-garde. The nearest "major" highway is in Springfield... however the proposed Kansas City - Jacksonville I-22 corridor passes nearby (on paper).

Also I don't think of this as the plan to end all plans, this is simply a store that doubles as an attraction, activity center etc... and could easily mold to fit the waterfront theme.

OCKLAWAHA
from a LONG line of Missouri-Ar-Ok-Ks bushwhackers!

[tufsu1]

Yeah, the OKC store is adjacent to I-40 but the access is pretty poor and somewhat convoluted. It really iS about as complicated trip as coming off I-95, over the Main Street Bridge, right on Bay a few blocks out to the store. Of course the OKC store does have canal access!

Ock...retailers aren't that concerned how hard it is to get to/from their store....just that it can be seen from the highway....the one outlet center in St. Aug. is a perfect example.