Shipyards

[bornnative]

Reaching back the point about the small cruise ships...economically this is a non-starter.

The cruise line you referenced is extremely small, markets to a theme-cruise niche, and has a fleet of American flagged vessels.  These three points represent the very reasons why this wouldn't work.

#1 - Small cruise line = very few port calls.  For something of this size, we're talking 1-2 per year...possibly.  Unlike Carnival, etc., these small cruises have no problem canceling a cruise if the bookings don't materialize.  Ask Fernandina...their "regular" small cruise calls have dropped from 3 per year to 1 in the past 3 years, all due to decline in the small/inland cruise market.

#2 - These small/inland cruises market on a theme...look at the website that was given as example.  These are cruises of people doing a "birdwatching" or an "antebellum and historic waterfront" tour.  Downtown Jacksonville isn't what their looking for - think Savannah waterfront, Beaufort or Charleston, SC.

#3 - These small/inland cruise companies get away with lower costs through docking at small municipal dock facilities because they are a) using existing facilities that are already municipally maintained to cater to recreational boaters, and b) they are conducting commercial operations on American-flagged vessels.  To my knowledge, there are only 1-2 of the US-flagged "Jones Act" operators still in business on the east coast.  To bring in a foreign flagged cruise ship, no matter how small, would require someone to foot the bill to create/get approved a USCG Marine Terminal Facility Plan, a USCG Facility Security Plan, as well as arranging facilities on the shore side to meet all US CBP requirements for handling foreign vessels/passengers/crew.  This last issue is exactly what caused 2 cruise calls that I was working on in Savannah to cancel and re-route last year...there was no USCG FSP for the municipal dock, and the city had no interest in arranging/paying for one.

It's entertaining to talk about what would be the highest & most ideal use of this land, but we have to be realistic too. 

Sadly, economics don't lie, and I think that applies to the Bass Pro Shops idea also.  Might be nice, but is wholly unrealistic, especially since a BSP facility would consume a lot of the available space for only a very narrow piece of the commercial market spectrum.  Someway/somehow - smaller (than big-box at least), mixed-use commercial/public access is going to be the answer.

[stjr]

Just what we need, suburban, big box stores downtown, on our invaluable waterfront no less.  I thought you guys were boosters of the urban environment, not the sub-urban one. 

[thelakelander]

^LOL. To be fair, Ock's more of a mass transit guy than an urbanite.

[Ocklawaha]

Reaching back the point about the small cruise ships...economically this is a non-starter.

The cruise line you referenced is extremely small, markets to a theme-cruise niche, and has a fleet of American flagged vessels.  These three points represent the very reasons why this wouldn't work.

#1 - Small cruise line = very few port calls.  For something of this size, we're talking 1-2 per year...possibly.  Unlike Carnival, etc., these small cruises have no problem canceling a cruise if the bookings don't materialize.  Ask Fernandina...their "regular" small cruise calls have dropped from 3 per year to 1 in the past 3 years, all due to decline in the small/inland cruise market.

Actually it is a very popular segment of the cruise industry, new ships are being launched and more and more schedules are planned. Jacksonville AND Fernandina, as well as Palatka, Sanford, St Augustine, Daytona etc... all have closer to 4 per month via American Cruise Lines 

http://www.epicjourneys.com/AmericanCL.html#anchor_59

2010 Independence:
November 6, 13, 20, 27
December 4, 11, 19, 26

2010 American Star:
November 6, 13, 20, 27
December 4, 11, 19, 26

2010 American Spirit: 
November 20, 27
December 4, 11, 19, 26

2010 American Glory: 
November 13
December 19, 26

2011 Independence:
April 2, 9, 16, 23, 20
November 5, 12, 19, 26
December 3, 10, 17, 24, 31

2011 American Star:
April 2, 9, 16, 23, 30
November 5, 12, 19, 26
December 3, 10, 17, 24, 31

2011 American Spirit:
February 26
March 5, 12, 19, 26
April 2, 9, 16, 23
November 19, 26
December 3, 10, 17, 24, 31

A newbie in the business is ACCL and it's new 96 passenger M/V Grande Caribe.
Blount Small ship adventures has also just added to it's fleet...
http://www.blountsmallshipadventures.com/

ALL OF THESE ARRIVE AND DEPART ON THE NORTHBANK RIVERWALK IN FRONT OF THE HYATT.

#2 - These small/inland cruises market on a theme...look at the website that was given as example.  These are cruises of people doing a "birdwatching" or an "antebellum and historic waterfront" tour.  Downtown Jacksonville isn't what their looking for - think Savannah waterfront, Beaufort or Charleston, SC.

Downtown Jacksonville and the Riverwalk are very much a part of the business and featured in the cruises, The Landing, Hyatt and other local's may be playing a part in this. I would think that Lake and Stephen's quay-village-market concept would be a star attraction. Wouldn't it be cool if our JAXPORT folks could be convinced to create a small welcome center on the Riverwalk which could serve as a pedestrian-Marine welcome station for JAX and FLORIDA.

WE ARE THINKING ABOUT DOING A STORY ON THIS LITTLE KNOWN INDUSTRY.

It's entertaining to talk about what would be the highest & most ideal use of this land, but we have to be realistic too. 

Sadly, economics don't lie, and I think that applies to the Bass Pro Shops idea also.  Might be nice, but is wholly unrealistic, especially since a BSP facility would consume a lot of the available space for only a very narrow piece of the commercial market spectrum.  Someway/somehow - smaller (than big-box at least), mixed-use commercial/public access is going to be the answer.

I respectively disagree, as I said, BPS might not be the be all - save all for the Shipyards property, but anyone that has ever been inside one of their "worlds" cannot deny they have one of the broadest spectrum of customers one could imagine. As someone else said, BPS and IKEA bring their own HOTELS and tourist related businesses where ever they go. For me that means putting vibrant life on the street DOWNTOWN.

Design a complete "Seaside Quay - Steamship Village", the success won't be built on Ikea or BPS, American Cruise Lines, a Maritime museum, aquarium, or Farm and Fish market. The individual elements, Fish Market, I-Max , Aquarium, or even the big box retailers, don't have to be the biggest, shinning, units in the chain either. The big box retailers don't even have to be on the current property, (think Hogan's Creek Walk, JSO, JAIL and 1/2 of a Berkman...) lot's of possibilities. The Success will be found in the synergy created by combining many venues large and small into a unique, walkable, transit oriented, pedestrian-auto-marine development.

...and Lake? WTF? NOT AN URBANEST? I believe you have insulted the metropolitan "World Golf Village!" Hee Hee!


OCKLAWAHA

[Noone]

Anyone want to go kayaking downtown? Does anyone know the guy named Todd who calls in on the Florida Sportsman's fishing show on Sat. mornings 7-9 on 9:30am.

I want to meet Todd. He promotes Downtown.

[Noone]

Yesterday, Put in at RCB at 7. There was a crabber putting in his boat. Takes his catch back to the family business up on Lem Turner. So Lake there is an opportunity to explore the marine use of the Shipyards location moving forward.

The key is to make available the opportunity for economic growth without the restictions of over regulated govt. restrictions.

[bornnative]

Ock, I get what you're saying about the planned number of calls on the schedule, but I still think it's an economic issue.  These small lines are exactly that...small lines that don't have deep enough pockets to fund the necessary pier improvements themselves, and don't promise enough of a financial impact for the City to justify anyone in City Hall going to bat for them to foot the bill for the infrastructure.  That's exactly why they use municipal piers in all their stops, including the City-owned dock in front of the Hyatt...they only have to pay a slip fee and a per-head passenger tax to the City.  No dock upkeep, no rent, no property taxes, no building of anything.  Their margins are too slim.

Look, I get the idea of the quay-fishing village, I really do.  I dig it.  I think it would be a very cool thing to have a waterfront addition to downtown similar to what there is in St. Simons (with shops and restaurants), Mobile (with the ship-museum USS Alabama), Charleston, and Savannah.  This really comes down to a philosophical question of how best to accomplish something...anything...productive at the site that doesn't turn into another blighted failure on the waterfront.  Do we swing for the fences and go for a picturesque fishing village anchored by a boutique size Bass Pro Shops, or do we focus our collective energy on ensuring that City Hall mandates some public access set-aside (pier or otherwise) and go from there?  It's the same as pursuing legislation at the federal level...the incremental approach almost always works better that the "home-run" approach, especially when public funds would be needed during a down economy.

Trying to carve out 30 half-acre dedicated niches for cruise ships docks and farmers markets and containerized art shops and fishing/bait stores and seafood markets would do a disservice to the potential of the property to have a truly changing effect on downtown.  Organic growth is great, but it needs to be just that...set aside space, and promote growth, but do it within the context of a coherent greater plan.

And for goodness sake, realize that everything worth doing - costs.  Someone has to pay the bill, and in all likelihood, its not going to be the City anytime soon.

**sidebar...I kayak too, and downtown is a great paddle.  I'd love to have hand-launch access worked into the Shipyards somewhere.  Its a small footprint, and very inexpensive.  It would be a nice afterthought kind of inclusion.

[Ocklawaha]

I think we all bring powerful and important elements to such an idea as this. Bornnative want's the steady as she goes approach, NOTHING wrong with that.  Lake want's walable, connectivity, which we all support. Stephendare is pushing the history button in order to keep what ever we do, uniquely Jacksonville-Waterfront.  I just want to bust up the "same-old-shit-different-day" thinkers into a team of "what if" imagine.  Put together, it's a symphony of Jacksonville done right and I hope the city is listening.

Bornnative? Would you agree or disagree with my statements about concrete ramps and paddlers? Since most people on here have probably only seen canoes and kayaks in the movies or at summer camp it's a steep learning curve.

My wife and I were quite entertained one day when our muscle bound boy James was back on leave from the Army and wanted to go canoeing with us. All went fine until he ran the bow of his boat up on a concrete boat ramp, the splash and the ensuing thunder of new, exotic and previously unknown profanity's was hilarious.


OCKLAWAHA

[bornnative]

I probably wasn't as clear as I had intended, but I actually do agree with you.  My intended point was that while I value and believe that the organic growth is the way to bring the property back, I think at some point it gets counterproductive to "overplan" the property use by specifying the particular business you want to place in each little corner of it.  That just doesn't seem organic to me...seems too heavy handed.  That's why I made the note about setting aside portions of the property as space for this kind of organic commercial growth, without insisting on creating business-specific infrastructure that has limited, if any, usefulness for other businesses.

[bornnative]

And yes, Ock, I do agree that canoes/kayaks and concrete ramps do not mix.  A point sadly lost on most boat-ramp users and designers.   

[north miami]

The water fronting property is too 'valuable',too distinctive to turn over to standard commercial endeavors which would likely flop anyway.Even a Bass Pro effort seems so bland.

[north miami]

Anyone want to go kayaking downtown? Does anyone know the guy named Todd who calls in on the Florida Sportsman's fishing show on Sat. mornings 7-9 on 9:30am.

I want to meet Todd. He promotes Downtown.

I have kayaked downtown.Also small craft such as 15' aluminum with small hp outboard.
Running the creek that passes under the Times Union parking lot and on out to the other side is,well,interesting.
Also Goat Island at Arlington Expressway bridge.

Conditions potentially treacherous for kayakers.No shoreline access in the event of a flip.Perhpas mediated with sit on top type kayaks.And of course significant tidal currents,although folks from Colorado would deem the currents manageable.(Coloradians are always amazed Florida's water and wild land recreation opportunities).
Concerns with large vessel traffic too- kaykers advised to make shore to shore crossings via the railroad bridge.

No matter how demanding or limiting,I believe we would see more small craft use downtown if there were more small craft launch facility spontaneous and nearby to the immediate vicinity and custom shoreline and Landing kayak access facility.

[stjr]

How about akin to Pier 39, San Francisco?


Like New York City, San Francisco uses public/private partnerships to get things paid for:

We invite you to join our limited group of elite Corporate Sponsors.

Coca-Cola
Coca-Cola is the world's leading manufacturer, marketer and distributor of non-alcoholic beverages, producing nearly 300 beverage brands. As the ubiquitous beverage brand, Coca-Cola has a passion to quench the thirst of its billions of friends around the world. As a partner of PIER 39 since 1991, Coca-Cola has been aggressively activating its partnership through retail promotions, on- PIER point-of-sales, and sampling programs to constantly enhance the visitor experience and associate Coca-Cola with that memorable occasion. Odwalla, a premium juice brand owned by Coca-Cola, is also featured throughout the PIER and has activated its partnership through on-site sampling events each year. Visit Odwalla and Coca-Cola.

Crystal Geyser ALPINE SPRING WATER
Crystal Geyser ALPINE SPRING WATER'S primary goal is to offer the highest quality spring water at everyday value prices. As a local business, Crystal Geyser has partnered with PIER 39 since 1989 by intimately linking their brand through their title sponsorship of the Crystal Geyser ALPINE SPRING WATER Center Stage. Their on-site presence ties in with the free, fun, family entertainment showcased at PIER 39. With millions of visitors annually, PIER 39 provides an ideal venue for driving sales of their spring water products. Visit Crystal Geyser ALPINE SPRING WATER.

Dreyer's Grand Ice Cream
Founded in 1928 in Oakland, CA, Dreyer's Grand Ice Cream is the leading premium ice cream brand in the United States. In 2006, Dreyer's became a wholly-owned subsidiary of Nestlé and now offers a range of branded ice cream products including Dreyer's and Edy's, Häagen-Dazs', Nestlé frozen snacks, and Starbucks' ice cream and frozen snacks. With a longstanding partnership with PIER 39 since 1994, Dreyer's has successfully leverages this venue by selling their products to the millions of visitors who frequent the PIER each year. In 2009, Dreyer’s remodeled the PIER 39 Scoop Shop to create a Dreyer’s Grand Ice Cream flagship store at PIER 39. Visit Dreyer's Grand Ice Cream.

El Mensajero
El Mensajero is the only home-delivered Spanish-language newspaper that covers the entire Bay Area. With more than 103,000 copies delivered to the reader’s door step and more than 18,000 available at single copy locations, El Mensajero is the largest Spanish weekly with an audited circulation. This has made El Mensajero the best print choice in the Bay Area for advertisement and public service announcements geared toward the Latino community. In 2007, El Mensajero proudly celebrated its 20th year of service to the Bay Area’s Latino community. An essential part of this service has been sponsoring and presenting family-oriented events and activities which have been made possible through meaningful partnerships, such as the one with PIER 39. For more information, visit El Mensajero.

The Examiner
The Examiner is a free, home-delivered newspaper delivered to more than 200,000 households in San Francisco and San Mateo Counties and reaches more than 250,000 households on the weekend. The Examiner has been a beloved San Francisco institution for more than 140 years. Its easy-to-read, compact format focuses on local news, sports, business and entertainment and is specifically tailored to Bay Area busy lifestyles. For more information, visit The Examiner.

Wines of California
Wines of California operates the Wines of California Wine Bar, the Wines of California Retail Store, and Swiss Louis Italian Restaurant at PIER 39. The Wines of California Wine Bar, located on the first level of PIER 39, features 1,200 square feet of indoor/outdoor dining and wine tasting space overlooking the San Francisco Bay and the PIER 39 Marina. Offerings include a unique selection of fine wines from more than 25 California wineries, as well as small bites, spectacular views, and heated patio seating. Wines of California also hosts wine tasting events and opportunities to meet the winemakers from each of the featured wineries.

The Wines of California Retail Store, located at the Bay End of PIER 39, offers a wide selection of California Wines for sale on-site and also for shipment throughout the United States.

Hours: Open everyday from 11:00 am - 10:00 pm.
Phone: 888.981.9463
Located mid-PIER on Level 1
www.winesofca.com

Telemundo 48
Telemundo 48/KSTS-TV is the Telemundo network Spanish-language station in the San Francisco Bay Area serving more than 1.4 million Hispanics. Telemundo 48 offers the best in originally produced novelas Monday - Friday from 7-11PM. Telemundo 48 is home to premiere sports properties such as the Mexican Soccer League and the 2008 Beijing Summer Olympics. Telemundo 48’s local line-up includes the award-winning Noticiero 48 at 6PM and 11PM. On weekends, Telemundo 48 produces Telemundo Deportivo, the only Spanish-language local sports program in the Bay Area, which airs Saturdays at 6PM. On Sundays at 6PM, Telemundo 48 presents Vive Telemundo, a half-hour newsmagazine featuring local entertainment and community events. For more information, call Telemundo 48 at 408.944.4848 or visit www.telemundo48.com.

See: http://www.pier39.com/index.cfm

[tayana42]

I probably just missed it somewhere, but why not a marina for private recreational power and sailboats?  Boats make a waterfront more interesting.  The city marina is located on the narrowest segment of the river and suffers from the problem of strong tidal currents. The shipyard site has less current and more space.

Here's Gothenburg, Sweden's, city marina;

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/74/Lilla_Bommen_in_Gothenburg.jpg/800px-Lilla_Bommen_in_Gothenburg.jpg

It is surrounded by restaurants, shops, the opera, and is the origin point for sightseeing boats, and is the home of Sweden's largest sailing vessel (now a restaurant). 

Just a thought.

[fieldafm]

How about akin to Pier 39, San Francisco?

Don't mean to be a negative nanny, but wouldnt that just be recreating the Landing at a spot 8 blocks down?