Permitting, HPC, and SPAR Design Review Board

[uptowngirl]

We bought a foreclosure last year, and after a lot of bood sweat and tears the inside is pretty much done and ready to move on to the outside. Scraping, sanding, painting, and of course the fence.  The fence was partially here when the house was purchased, it is a raised block with collumns fence, just missing the actually fence in between the collumns. It needs some repair, paint, and the fencing and looks like hell now, but is about 70% there. When the house was bought we looked for permits (the city came right away and started hitting us on everything!), and after hours at Ed Ball we did find all the permits the city was hitting us for at the time, but they are all over the place in the system and it was difficult to find the minimum  permits needed to put a stop to the nagging (now I know why people are leary of buying a house needing even a minimum of renovation!). The issue I have now is after hours and hours working with the city I still cannot find a permit for the fence (not that they asked). Do I have to start al over? Will I have to remove the part of the fence that is aready done? If I decide to do a picket fence instead do I need a permit to remove the portion of the fence already there? How do I find out what was originally there if anything? I most certainly am not going to SPAR for any review junk, so I am girding myself for that battle too (athough I am over on Ionia and usualy the goal for them on Ionia is "knock it down".)

Any one with some experience with this? Pointers?

[uptowngirl]

Hmmmm looks like I am not the only one who doesn't know :-(

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

Fences are a sticky subject.  I've looked all over coj.net for fence rules, regulations, etc... and haven't found anything conclusive.   I wanted to install an 8' privacy in Murray Hill.

The way I've interpreted everything (probably wrong) is you are doing a 'repair' to your fence.  Most 'repairs' don't require a permit unless it is structural and needs a city inspection.  There were no specifications that I could find for fencing; there were no codes that I could find for fencing;  I'm assuming that SPAR (much like RAP & MHPA) won't do anything unless it's an eyesore - which I don't think it will be.

Best case scenario (IMO) - You put up your fence and move on to the next project.
Worst case scenario - Someone calls the city and you have to pay whatever permit-fee that they have hidden for fences.  Take before and after pictures to verify that it was a repair and not a new fence.

Hope this helps.

[sean]

I had an aluminum decorative fence installed a couple of years back around my house by kelly's fencing and all I had to get was approval from HPC. Getting the right permits can be a nightmare but if I remember correctly you would only need a permit if the fence was going around a pool. If it was me I would just go ahead and finish it. CE can suck it

[CS Foltz]

uptowngirl..............did you call Code Enforcement? It would seem to me that might be the shortest way to get something? I can understand  why you would not deal with SPAR Council.......but that might at least get you moving in the right direction!

[strider]

Uptown girl...fences do not require a permit.  Which is why so many of them get taken up before the HPC after the fact.  Many (including the professional installers) do not even think about that silly little COA.  Until it is too late.

The type of fence you are talking about....I would think the foundation would/ may need some kind of permit, But I am not sure about that.  It may not need any at all. Even so, how do they even know it was not there long before a permit would have been required?  At some time, the need to permit existing work goes away anyway...it becomes senseless.   

Also, who is telling you that you need that permit?  Building Inspection or Code Enforcement?  Code Enforcement has no say in permitting anything so they can not say anything about permits. If you have a permit on the property, they should not even be coming around...until that silly little final inspection (and fee paid) to them to clear it if it was condemned.

There is also no reason to go see SPAR Council for any of this.  They have no say in the matter.  That they get to review anything is strictly a courtesy on the part of the Historic Department. 

You can PM me and I will do some additional digging but I would just go ahead and get a walk-in Historic Department approval for the fence and do it.  If you need a permit and can't get one pulled, PM me.

Joe

[sheclown]

^yeah, what Strider said.

[cindi]

If you go by HPC's recent actions / decisions to demo everything standing - it appears they place absolutely no value on historic integrity / value so I think they should be the last people in the world to have a say about crap.

[sheclown]

Cindi, recent policy changes (2007) including an apparent re-write of the ordinance code dealing with condemned structures has tied HPC's hands.  Pair that up with a group who, speaking for the neighborhood, demands their demolition, and it is no wonder we are where we are. 

There is a new chair on the HPC, new members, and I think we will see positive results. 

Check out the thread on the condemned property committee! 

Very good signs.

[uptowngirl]

Thanks everyone, when I called CE they said I did not need anything, but perhaps approval since the fence is existing, it is considered a repair. That being said, they also told me unless the previous owner did the fence w/o approval -so confusing......:-( I think I wil take ya'lls advice.

Thanks again.

[sheclown]

Call Joel's office and talk to them about the situation.  Pull a COA to finish the fence.  They are not going to deny you this especially considering you have walked into this problem.

[strider]

In thinking about your house, I remembered that the work, including the fence parts, was done under the guidance of the city - as part of a facade grant. I would think it was done correctly then and so you should only need that COA (the old one was good for only a year) and then finish that fence.

[cindi]

Cindi, recent policy changes (2007) including an apparent re-write of the ordinance code dealing with condemned structures has tied HPC's hands.  Pair that up with a group who, speaking for the neighborhood, demands their demolition, and it is no wonder we are where we are.  

There is a new chair on the HPC, new members, and I think we will see positive results.  

Check out the thread on the condemned property committee!  

Very good signs.

it really doesn't matter the reason, the results have still been the same.  Historic homes are forever gone, never to return.  And yes, someone had to sign off on all those demo's and no, you can't place all the blame on Louise and SPAR. You are right, hopefully there is change coming, let's see how long before the next piece of history comes in contact with a bulldozer.

[sheclown]

it really doesn't matter the reason, the results have still been the same.  Historic homes are forever gone, never to return.  

Amen on this.