Should Jax invest in a new convention center?

[Ocklawaha]

DALLAS (Above)  SAN DIEGO (below)



OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

I will note, again, that the footprint begins with the size of the exhibit hall, which I believe should be minimally about 200,000 sf.  Add the support spaces for the lobby, ticket/credential desks/windows, concession/souvenir stands, an onsite photo copy/internet/printing facility, restrooms, kitchen, storage, staging, utilities, docks, at least some meeting rooms on the same floor, media spaces, offices for the CC and event floor managers, etc. and you have a pretty good size foot print, probably at least 50% or more over the size of the exhibition hall.  Now, add outside space for access, security perimeters, event vehicle parking, truck unloading, possible outdoor exhibits, an entry plaza, landscaping, outdoor function space, etc. and you have a very large footprint, easily approaching 8 acres plus.

Only if one thinks horizontal.

Lake, I made it clear I think all this goes on the ground floor.  You can put more meeting rooms/function spaces on an upper floor all you like.  I am essentially putting just the exhibit all and its support spaces on the ground floor.  I sure would like to see you put the truck dock on the third floor of a CC!  

I haven't even factored in a parking garage or future expansion space (so we don't have to start all over again in 10 to 20 years if Jax and/or the CC business grows substantially). [We need to build for success, not failure, or we are doomed to fulfill our own prophecy.]

Any idea of the growth timeline.  From the way things are going, we won't even have a 200,000 square exhibition hall in 10 years.  Also, you can follow Orlando's path of building a completely separate facility across the street with the JSO/jail site, assuming they're relocated at some point in the distant future.

Lake, I can't predict the future but, given Jax's historic growth track, it wouldn't be unreasonable to demand something more in 10 to 20 years.  Also, note the article posted by Stephen that said it was common to look at expansions after 10 years.  As to Orlando, that's apples and [Orlando] oranges   .  Orlando already had a 1 million square foot facility.  They didn't need a bigger exhibit hall, just another one, for dual conventions or overflows.  We are a long way from having that "problem".

By the way, in the stadium/arena district, parking and access is far less of an issue (Can you see 10,000 to 15,000 convention goers driving and/or mixing in with downtown workers and residents, if we rebuild that base sufficiently?

Too many people on downtown's streets would be a great problem to have.  We would then be like Toronto.

Generally, I wasn't referring to pedestrians, but thousands of drivers.  Just look what it takes to navigate downtown when a show of only 3,000 ends at TUPAC or 2,000 at the Florida Theater.  Also, if the CC is on the riverfront, conventioneers don't have a 360 degree exit strategy, but more like 180 degrees.  That intensifies the traffic when conventions break.  I am thinking a tidal wave of people flooding downtown on a weekday lunch or dinner hour.  How many downtown workers will be happy to have their lunch hours obliterated by 2 hour waits and sidewalks so crowded they can't find a spot to stand?  Or downtown residents at dinner? Yes, a good problem, but be careful what you wish for.  There will be trade-offs.

And, if we infill with development of the shipyards, a stadium based CC  will be within reasonable walking distance of the East Bay "entertainment district".  Jags fans walk that leg by the thousands for every game already.  I reassert, also, that a stadium site, to be successful, will need contemporaneous construction of an adjacent hotel and eating establishments.  These should be feasible as they will also serve the other venues, and, with the streetcar, Bay Steeet walkways, and riverwalk connections, will be able to bid on downtown visitor business as well.

Realistically, this description is like a 50 year plan.  For example, there has been talk of infilling the Shipyards site for nearly 20 years now.  Not to mention, it would cost billions to fund all of these ideas assuming downtown's shrinking market grew to support them over that time period.  

I never said we needed the Shipyards.  That's just possible future gravy.  A successful convention center. though, might accelerate interest in developing the Shipyards.  Also, agreement on the CC at the stadium with a hotel, etc. would likely assure the City making the Bay Street streetcar happen tomorrow vs. whenever.  Excluding the shipyard, you are talking about $100 million +/- for the CC and $$ for the streetcar.  But, you and Ock say that's coming anyway so that's not extra $$ at the margin.  The hotel should be private $$.  A garage, if needed at the stadium site, would be necessary as well at the courthouse site so that's not an incremental cost vs. your option.  So, to sum up, we don't need 50 years and we don't need billions.  

[Timkin]

does'nt sound like it... but for some reason the fixation seems to be on the site of the current Courthouse.

[thelakelander]

Lake, I made it clear I think all this goes on the ground floor.  You can put more meeting rooms/function spaces an upper floor all you like.  I am essentially putting just the exhibit all and its support spaces on the ground floor.  I sure would like to see you put the truck dock on the third floor of a CC!

I think an exhibition hall works best on a second floor so you'll need a ramp of course.   Assuming current courthouse parcel is the selected site, a ramp could be developed along the sloping Liberty Street.  Btw, you should check out the convention center Ock just posted images of.  If I remember correctly, parking and LRT happen to be on the first floor while the exhibition hall is on the second.  Also the same goes for Mobile and Huntsville, with the exhibition hall on the second levels.  If these cities can do it, so can Jacksonville.

Mobile




Huntsville

Lake, I can't predict the future but, given Jax's historic growth track, it wouldn't be unreasonable to demand something more in 10 to 20 years.  Also, note the article posted by Stephen that said it was common to look at expansions after 10 years.  As to Orlando, that's apples and [Orlando] oranges   .  Orlando already had a 1 million square foot facility.  They didn't need a bigger exhibit hall, just another one, for dual conventions or overflows.  We are a long way from having that "problem".

A larger space here would also be used for dual conventions.  Nevertheless, the current courthouse site can be set up to have as much as somewhere between 300-400k square feet of exhibition space if desired.  That should serve us well into the future.  By the time we grow into that kind of space the building could be nearing the end of its lifetime or the county jail parcel could be available, making the Orlando expansion solution a possibility.

Generally, I wasn't referring to pedestrians, but thousands of drivers.  Just look what it takes to navigate downtown when a show of only 3,000 ends at TUPAC or 2,000 at the Florida Theater.  Also, if the CC is on the riverfront, conventioneers don't have a 360 degree exit strategy, but more like 180 degrees.  That intensifies the traffic when conventions break.  I am thinking a tidal wave of people flooding downtown on a weekday lunch or dinner hour.  How many downtown workers will be happy to have their lunch hours obliterated by 2 hour waits and sidewalks so crowded they can't find a spot to stand?  Or downtown residents at dinner? Yes, a good problem, but be careful what you wish for.  There will be trade-offs.

If our restaurants get to the point of two hour waits at lunch, I can promise you a fleet of additional businesses will open up shop to serve the masses and true vibrancy will finally be upon us.  If major cities can deal with crowded streets and sidewalks, I can only assume that Jacksonville should be able to as well.  We did 60 years ago.  

I never said we needed the Shipyards.  That's just possible future gravy.  A successful convention center. though, might accelerate interest in developing the Shipyards.  Also, agreement on the CC at the stadium with a hotel, etc. would likely assure the City making the Bay Street streetcar happen tomorrow vs. whenever.

I don't see a convention center coming tomorrow.  While we will possibly see the initial streetcar corridor come online within this decade, it won't be going to the stadium.  It will be connecting Riverside with Downtown.  Realistically, you're still looking past 2020 for fixed transit to access the Sports District unless this city truly changes its priorities.

Excluding the shipyard, you are talking about $100 million +/- for the CC and $$ for the streetcar.  But, you and Ock say that's coming anyway so that's not extra $$ at the margin.  The hotel should be private $$.  A garage, if needed at the stadium site, would be necessary as well at the courthouse site so that's not an incremental cost vs. your option.  So, to sum up, we don't need 50 years and we don't need billions.

You're going to have to subsidize complementing development like a hotel because our market can't support such a facility and won't be able to anytime soon.  So between a convention center and hotel you could be looking at $100 - $200 million total.  You still need some retail and restaurant so lets add another $50 million or so for subsidizing this complementing development.  With all of that you're still a mile away from the heart of the Northbank.  Infilling that mile will certainly run you into the billions and take decades to accomplish.  Why bother?  Just take the $100 million, use the current courthouse site, make some money back through public/private partnerships and call it day.

[thelakelander]

does'nt sound like it... but for some reason the fixation seems to be on the site of the current Courthouse.

Because it makes sense on so many levels.

1. The city already owns the land.

2. The current use will be leaving the site.

3. The city has invested millions in making Bay Street an entertainment district (complementing use).

4. The city spent millions in subsidizing a convention center sized hotel in the Hyatt (complementing use).

5. The Hyatt (a public investment) is next door to the site so you can combine facilities.

6. Bay Street entertainment district is next door to the site.

7. The Jacksonville Landing is two blocks away.

8. Its one of the few sites where you only have to concentrate on the facility because the complementing uses are already in place.

[stjr]

Lake, I respect your opinions but I respectfully see this differently for the most part.  As stated, I think the Courthouse site has issues just like you think the Stadium site does.  I am sure no site is perfect.

What would be best is for both sites to be well studied, rated and/or compared on various critical factors, and then evaluated and recommended accordingly.  I am concerned that Jax will once again make a knee jerk decision, be lazy, and just go with what seems to be the easiest and/or cheapest way out.  That kind of non-creative, non-think-out-of-the-box thinking is what keeps this town grounded.  Convince me that a complete and open-minded non-partisan analysis will be done of both sites and I will have more confidence in the winner, whichever site that will be.

[thelakelander]

I agree and thought that this was already done a few years back.  I'll have to go back and research the old Metjax archives but I thought they narrowed the two best sites to the current county courthouse and Prime Osborn locations.  Unfortunately, the committee decided to leave it up to the council to pick the final location instead of sticking their necks out on the line.

[Timkin]

Is that wise? to leave it up to Council?

[Lunican]

September 14, 2007

Eight potential sites for an expanded or new convention center were narrowed to the Prime Osborn Convention Center and the Hyatt Regency Hotel area by a subcommittee of Jacksonville's convention center task force.

The site selection committee decided on the two spots after a consultant's final feasibility study presentation at a meeting facilitated by Jacksonville Community Council Inc.

Both sites will be studied before presentation to the full task force on Sept. 27. The group's final recommendation to the city is in October.

http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/091407/bus_199649407.shtml

[thelakelander]

Is that wise? to leave it up to Council?

NO!

[stjr]

does'nt sound like it... but for some reason the fixation seems to be on the site of the current Courthouse.

Because it makes sense on so many levels.

1. The city already owns the land.  It also already owns the land at the Stadium.

2. The current use will be leaving the site. No problem at the stadium.  It's just a parking lot.

3. The city has invested millions in making Bay Street an entertainment district (complementing use). Great.  It's within walking and easy transit range of the stadium too.  And, a CC at the stadium might spread the entertainment district eastward further while expanding our tax base to a new, currently under utilized area.

4. The city spent millions in subsidizing a convention center sized hotel in the Hyatt (complementing use).  With a larger CC, the Hyatt and Omni won't alone be enough to service a larger convention.  We will probably need another hotel Downtown anyway.  Might as well build it at the stadium district where it can also feed off of the stadium, arena, baseball grounds, fairgrounds, and Metro Park/riverwalk.

5. The Hyatt (a public investment) is next door to the site so you can combine facilities.  The arena, stadium, fairgrounds, Metro Park, baseball grounds provide a lot more options to "combine" facilities.

6. Bay Street entertainment district is next door to the site.  Again, just a short walk or transit ride from the Stadium district.  Not necessary to be next door.  By the way, it seems that the "Bay Street entertainment district" ain't all that much.  Likely, a spit in the bucket for a large convention.  So, conventioneers will be humping it down the road anyway. Building around this is akin to the tail wagging the dog.

7. The Jacksonville Landing is two blocks away. Fair enough.  But, again, not enough to dictate the CC's location by itself.  Also, not far from the stadium either.  Witness the Florida-Georgia and Gator Bowl festivities that load up the landing as did the Super Bowl. 

8. Its one of the few sites where you only have to concentrate on the facility because the complementing uses are already in place.  Yes and no.  Far more hotels and entertainment would be needed versus existing if successful.  Imagine what a CC addition would do to extending downtown along the riverfront to the stadium district and making the stadium district an additional hub for downtown.

Lastly, Lake, has anyone considered what a stadium district hotel and entertainment district would do to ALSO increase bookings for the arena, fairgrounds, stadium, ball park, and Metro park.  That impact could multiply several times the impact alone of the CC.

[Timkin]

Kinda thought not. I mean they might come up with a worse Idea than mine... Put it in Arlington or something stupid like that.

[stjr]

September 14, 2007

Eight potential sites for an expanded or new convention center were narrowed to the Prime Osborn Convention Center and the Hyatt Regency Hotel area by a subcommittee of Jacksonville's convention center task force.

The site selection committee decided on the two spots after a consultant's final feasibility study presentation at a meeting facilitated by Jacksonville Community Council Inc.

Lunican, thanks.  But, this was 2 years ago and should be updated whenever we actually get serious about the CC being funded.  Also, there is no mention here of the other sites considered or the analysis that led to their conclusion.  Can you get us more?

The study also seems a little suspect given that the PO was one of two finalists.    The whole reason this discussion is on the table is due to agreement that that site is woefully inadequate.  Who was on this subcommittee and how "professional" and "exhaustive" was their process?  Sounds like the outcome was based more on political expediency more than merit.

[Lunican]

Here is the original list:

- City Hall Annex/Duval County Courthouse, East Bay and Newnan streets

- Duval County School Board/Wyndham Jacksonville Riverwalk hotel, Prudential Drive

- Jacksonville Fairgrounds, 510 Fairgrounds Place

- The Jacksonville Landing, 1 Independent Drive

- Jacksonville Municipal Stadium Parking Lot J, Gator Bowl Boulevard

- JEA Southside Generating Station, Broadcast Place

- Prime Osborn Convention Center, 1000 Water St.

- Shipyards, East Bay Street

http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/071807/bus_185219673.shtml

[thelakelander]

My comments in red, except for the last, which is in black.

does'nt sound like it... but for some reason the fixation seems to be on the site of the current Courthouse.

Because it makes sense on so many levels.

1. The city already owns the land.  It also already owns the land at the Stadium.
The Fairgrounds owns a chunk of it too. Meaning to sqaure it off you might have to buy them out.

2. The current use will be leaving the site. No problem at the stadium.  It's just a parking lot.That the city doesn't completely own

3. The city has invested millions in making Bay Street an entertainment district (complementing use). Great.  It's within walking and easy transit range of the stadium too.  And, a CC at the stadium might spread the entertainment district eastward further while expanding our tax base to a new, currently under utilized area.Spreading a mile east is a little excessive and unrealistic.  You could pay to subsidize complementing uses but they'll end up competing against your current investment, killing the potential of both.

4. The city spent millions in subsidizing a convention center sized hotel in the Hyatt (complementing use).  With a larger CC, the Hyatt and Omni won't alone be enough to service a larger convention.  We will probably need another hotel Downtown anyway.  Might as well build it at the stadium district where it can also feed off of the stadium, arena, baseball grounds, fairgrounds, and Metro Park/riverwalk.The Hyatt has 966 rooms so it should be fine.  If another hotel is needed, it could be one of the private uses to purchase air rights on top of the new convention center, similar to what was done in Seattle.

5. The Hyatt (a public investment) is next door to the site so you can combine facilities.  The arena, stadium, fairgrounds, Metro Park, baseball grounds provide a lot more options to "combine" facilities.An attached hotel is more important to the success of a convention center than a football field.  Probably because convention delegates won't be able to sleep in Metro Park, the fairgrounds, arena or parking lots.

6. Bay Street entertainment district is next door to the site.  Again, just a short walk or transit ride from the Stadium district.  Not necessary to be next door.  By the way, it seems that the "Bay Street entertainment district" ain't all that much.  Likely, a spit in the bucket for a large convention.  So, conventioneers will be humping it down the road anyway. Building around this is akin to the tail wagging the dog.Tell it to Nashville, Toronto or Louisville. Density is a great thing.  Btw, there is a huge difference in walking a mile in the sun past a factory and a jail verses across the street or next door.






7. The Jacksonville Landing is two blocks away. Fair enough.  But, again, not enough to dictate the CC's location by itself.  Also, not far from the stadium either.  Witness the Florida-Georgia and Gator Bowl festivities that load up the landing as did the Super Bowl.  That type of business would certainly result in better retail, restaurants and expansion for the center.  Isn't that a good thing?

8. Its one of the few sites where you only have to concentrate on the facility because the complementing uses are already in place.  Yes and no.  Far more hotels and entertainment would be needed versus existing if successful.  Imagine what a CC addition would do to extending downtown along the riverfront to the stadium district and making the stadium district an additional hub for downtown.It would do the same thing it did in expanding downtown to LaVilla or what the stadium did for expanding downtown.  Absolutely nothing.  Let's go ahead and get the walkable heart right before worrying about infilling the Sports District.

Lastly, Lake, has anyone considered what a stadium district hotel and entertainment district would do to ALSO increase bookings for the arena, fairgrounds, stadium, ball park, and Metro park.  That impact could multiply several times the impact alone of the CC.Doubt it, however it's worth looking at.