Outer Beltway Update

[stjr]

Hopefully, this project is as financially questionable as it sounds (article posted below).  Interesting that the bidders may demand a guaranteed profit.  Only when dealing with government!  In the private sector, you take on risks to reap rewards.  Why should anyone be guaranteed a profit?  If they are, the State might as well build the project itself as it's not transferring risk if it guarantees a profit.  And, the State doesn't need financing help as no private company can borrow for less than the State.

If there is no urgency to build the project, why are we even talking about it when there is urgency related to so many other needs that seem to be lagging this project in support by these same State, agency and city players.  By example, I wonder if Ms. Carroll is as concerned about adequately funding education or mass transit as she is this road.

As the quotes in the article make clear, this project is tied to nothing more than growth (=urban sprawl), not quality of life.  Aren't we seeing presently what happens when the primary engine of our economy is nothing but growth?  Do we ever learn our lessons?

MJ should ask for interviews with Rep. Carroll and Ron Barton in which they are asked to address concerns posted here on MJ.  Until and unless they convince me otherwise, this project is just stupid and these politicos come across, likewise, for their unequivocal support of it.

Florida looks for private partner to build First Coast Outer Beltway
Source URL: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-06-23/story/florida-looks-private-partner-build-first-coast-outer-beltway

By Larry Hannan

Jacksonville isn’t known as a gambling city.


And although the state is hoping a coalition of road contractors, engineering firms and equity partners will soon be coming to Northeast Florida to make a high-stakes bet, the cost may end up scaring people away, and that includes corporations with billions of dollars in capital.

Five companies, three with headquarters overseas, have met with the state to discuss building the 46-mile First Coast Outer Beltway, from Interstate 10 in Jacksonville to Interstate 95 in St. Johns County, for $1.8 billion. Each firm would be part of what the state calls a “concession group” and will, if selected, be expected to recoup its money and make a profit by charging tolls on the roadway.

“A concession group is taking a risk that there will be motorists on the road,” said Jim Knight,  project manager with FDOT. “If there’s an economic downturn, and people don’t drive on the road they are still responsible for maintaining the roadway.”

Investors who’ve examined the project admit to cost concerns.

“It’s an enormous amount of money to put down,” said Antonio Garrastazu,  director of business and government affairs for Globalvia Infrastructures, a company based in Madrid and Miami that has met with the state to discuss the project.

Garrastazu said his company is interested but might need some concessions, such as the state agreeing to reimburse the company if revenue projections are not met.

Knight said the state will not do that.

It will ask the concessionaire to make back its money by collecting tolls, largely because the state lacks revenue to bail out a private group. The state will set the toll rate, likely 15 to 20 cents a mile. And, Knight said, the winning coalition will not be allowed to raise the tolls if it encounters financial difficulty.

At 20 cents a mile, a car would pay $9.20 to travel the entire road. There would also be a $1 surcharge for cars  Â­â€" $2.50 for trucks â€" to cross a new Shands Bridge.

The state is betting, too, that a group exists that will want to do this. If no one steps forward it could be decades before the roadway gets built because Florida lacks the money to build the road itself.

University of North Florida economist Paul Mason  doesn’t see a fair gamble occurring. He expects the private partner to demand a rigged game.

“The state will have to guarantee the private company will make money,” Mason said. “I don’t think anyone will do this without that guarantee.”

State Rep. Jennifer Carroll,  R-Fleming Island, said the state may have to consider breaking up the project into sections and bidding them separately if no one takes on the whole project.

“I hope we get a bidder,” Carroll said. “But if we don’t we’ll have to get creative.”

The areas near I-10 and I-95 would get more traffic at first, so those areas could see tolls before a middle section is built later, she said, after revenue has been generated. But she admitted that she doesn’t know if that’s realistic.

The beltway would be the first toll road in Northeast Florida since 1989. It would incorporate the existing Cecil Commerce Parkway, and Branan Field and Baxley roads.

Ron Barton,  executive director of the Jacksonville Economic Development Commission, said the road is needed to complement Interstate 295 west of downtown Jacksonville.

“As our metro area grows, it will be important to have in place the second outer ring transportation system that will become the equivalent of I-395,” Barton said. “There is not a single metro area that has not grown significantly that did not put in place a series of road systems like the First Coast Outer Beltway.”

A study commissioned by the state suggests the road is a good long-term bet. It estimates that by 2030, with tolls costing 20 cents a mile, it would generate almost $200 million a year.

The private investors would also make their money back around 2030, assuming the roadway was open by 2015. The road would continue to generate around $200 million every year after that.

By 2025, the most highly traveled parts of the road, near the existing Shands Bridge, would have about 76,000 cars a day.

If those cars traveled the entire 46 mile stretch of roadway, it would generate just under $700,000 in revenue a day with a 20-cent toll.

But those estimates rely on an assumption of major growth and job creation in the Jacksonville area. It’s estimated there are just under 1.3 million people living in Duval, Clay and St. Johns counties right now with about 577,000 people employed. By 2030 the study assumes 1.8 million people will live in those three counties, with more than 800,000 people employed.

Knight said the state did not have a timetable yet for selecting a private partner. That means there is no timetable for getting the Outer Beltway built.

Barton said the project is important, but not urgent.

“Speed and timing of construction is less important,” he said. “than getting the funding right and structuring a credible construction delivery plan with a partner that will have staying power through a complex project.”

[Ocklawaha]

What amount of insane does it take to calculate how a road running from the St. Johns River at Green Cove Springs, Northwest to Cecil Field, is going to be the solve all for Clay traffic going into JACKSONVILLE? Better yet, how does one get from Orange Park to Town Center faster, by first driving to Green Cove Springs, then WGV? Did ANY of these dopes ever study geography.

These boys and girls are smoking crack! Imagine a job for Joe Lunchbucket here in Jacksonville in which Joe can plop down $18.40 a day or some $368.00 dollars a month for the privilege to drive on this stupid super-slab in lieu of Blanding, Old Middleburg, Lenox, Normandy, Lane, I-10 or I-295...  Not going to happen, not no way, not no how.

I can see it now:

"Dad! I got the job at the new BK at Beltway and I-95, next to the truck stop, can I have $19 dollars so I can drive to work?"

or

On the IRS statement for students the kid writes in his annual BK earnings...

INCOME: $3,693 dollars
TOLLS: $4,4,16 dollars

YEAH RIGHT! Better get somebody to build that road fast because Bessie The Heifer down at Gustafson's Dairy has a hot date over in St. Johns.

LYRICS FOR THE FIRST COAST OUTER BELTWAY MARCH...
"All day she gives homogenized  
all night she give pasteurized
Bessie the Heifer
The Queen of all the Cows!"

OCKLAWAHA

[Starbuck]

The outer beltway is important to Jacksonville Development. There is nothing out there now but preservation lands along the St. Marys River that needs strip development and low income housing. The river will make a dandy stormwater drain. Much of the land is owned by Coxwell (and other members of the "nifty fifty") and who just lost funding for the Southbank park improvements and needs more income. Most importantly we must drain off revitalization efforts in the downtown core since commerce there has become so overheated that there is no longer any open space for commercial enterprise, and all of the residential neighborhoods are fully redeveloped. There must be at least five or six persons a day who need to travel that route, so let's subsidize the private growth that will occur along the corridor with public tax dollars like we did for Tinseltown and River City Marketplace. It isn't as though there are enough vacant shopping centers or vacant strip centers closer to the center of the city.

[Ocklawaha]

Very well done Starbuck!

I stand corrected...

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

Nothing in the article is suprising.  Its not going to get built without the State giving up some major concessions.  Roads are worse than rail when subsidies are concerned.  Luckily, when people play with their own money they're more likely to make sound financial decisions.  Spending $1.8 billion to charge drivers $9.20 in hopes of banking on projected growth patterns (that won't be the same once the market comes back) equals bad business.

[fsujax]

See this is the problem with JEDC, first of all why are the even commenting on the Outer Beltway? Focus on Downtown and leave the rest of the county to the Planning Department.

[tufsu1]

See this is the problem with JEDC, first of all why are the even commenting on the Outer Beltway? Focus on Downtown and leave the rest of the county to the Planning Department.

Well, JEDC is responsible for economic development all over Duval County, not just downtown....that said, Ron Barton's comments are odd at best....and plain wrong (I can think of many metro areas that don'e have 2 ring roads).

[thelakelander]

More metros are running fixed mass transit than those with two ring roads.

[fsujax]

Whats funny is when I lived in Atlanta, the people up there squashed the second beltway that had been planned for years. I will never forget that. Showing up to a public meeting in Gwinnett County with hundreds of people there in opposition to the outer beltway.

[thelakelander]

Regarding the JEDC and the Outer Beltway for Jacksonville, I don't think the project will have significant positive impact on Jacksonville/Duval County economically.  The small stretch that runs through Jacksonville is already in place, giving Cecil great access to the rest of the country regardless of if the toll section is developed or not.  Once the toll section through Clay and St. Johns is constructed, it's still a huge risk to assume that shipping companies (the few shipping to destinations along Florida's East Coast south of Jax) will choose to use the longer toll road than the existing highway network.

[Captain Zissou]

More metros are running fixed mass transit than those with two ring roads.

I think this is a very interesting statistic.  If we're trying to keep up with peer cities, why would we choose to do so in a way that other cities are no longer choosing?  Beltways are the past, rail is the present/future.  We're chasing a dis-proven idea.

[jandar]

So lets see,
They want to build the pink route, meaning that for me near Old Jennings/Branan Field, it seems like a no brainer right?

Wrong, the pink is the worst route. For me to drive from my house to SJTC using that corridor, would mean around 20 miles just to get to I95. At 20 cents a mile, plus 1$ to cross the new shands, that would mean around 5$ each way, then an additional 10+ miles to get from I95 to SJTC.

Or, I could drive the 28 mile commute I currently do, down blanding and over the Buckman, use the same gas, and save 10$ a day.

Yeah, the pink route is the most idiotic route, but no one listens to the normal person they expect to use this corridor. Instead, they listen to developers.

[jandar]

Regardless of love/hate for cars, there will be people who will drive. You cannot change stuff overnight. Its going to take decades to get rail to where it needs to be, even if it was focused on solely.

In the meantime, you cannot expect people to not live in clay and st johns and commute by car to work. The corridor from Clay to St Johns is those counties priority, Jax's corridor part is already done save for a few overpasses on 103rd and Normandy and Argyle.

Yes, the pink route is the worst, the purple was the one many of us fought for.

[thelakelander]

^You're right. However, I think people are starting to realize it may take a couple of decades to build this thing as well.  Primarily, because as you've stated, the route chosen doesn't make much sense for anyone except those looking to make some money off of it.

[JeffreyS]

My fear is if some group pours a bunch of money into this they will fight commuter rail fearing people won't be paying their tolls.