Blanding Blvd./I-295: $161 mil.; Mass Transit: $0

[Ocklawaha]

Some Ockvervations:


Check out the waterways!

1.  CLAY COUNTY, is at a distinct disadvantage in connecting to Duval, it's not their fault either... Let's call it GOD! Imagine your planning the "escape relief highway" for Clay County, which we all know is to say metro-Orange Park. Between Blanding and Roosevelt you blow a 14 lane FREEway across 295 and the County Line, the money is FREE and everyone supports it, so where you going to go now bub? Straight North and you wipe out the Ortega Hills, and other sundry developments along the river and even it you got past them your still coming to a dead stop just north of Yukon. The Ortega puts a squeeze on the roadways as you progress north ending at Ortega and Ortega Forest and the Roosevelt or Grand Avenue Bridges. Merge it into 17 and you just transfered the Clay mess to Jacksonville, no relief and no better.  If you choose to go down the west side of the Ortega River, you going to hit the wall well before Cedar Hills as the Cedar River now angles all roads and traffic NORTHWEST! Hardly a downtown shortcut.

The only 2 things that could be addressed on the North End of Clay County are Fixed Mass Transit in the form of rail, and pulling away the Duval-North traffic from the Duval-East. With the Buckman bridge being at the choke
point on the Northeast corner of the County the traffic must be split up, the choke that can't be moved due to waterways and development to the north. However ALL of the traffic from Middleburg/Flemming Island and the South half of Orange Park that is bound for the Jacksonville Southside could be diverted before entering OP.

Frankly another River crossing on the South End of Orange Park/Flemming Island would do more to relieve the inbound rush to Duval every morning, more so if it would tie into I-795 (9-B) or a similar connector to disburse the traffic on the St. Johns/Duval side with a 4-lane San Jose/SR13, I-95 connection and I-295 connection.


It's a choice... but it's NOT A FIX.

2.  MASS TRANSIT: WILL NOT FIX THE TRAFFIC PROBLEM, not now, not EVER! But good mass transit will offer the wise commuter a high quality alternative to the traffic jams. Traffic will continue to build as the city pushes outward, all the Mass Transit people are saying is GIVE US A CHOICE. Most will continue to sit on Roosevelt in their autos cursing the lights, the base traffic, and the guy ahead of them. This behavior will continue until the day they've waited for the 3rd light change at Roosevelt and Yorktown, and a two car RDC train blows past them like a rocket sled on rails. EPIPHANY!


Tweedle Dee or Tweedle Dumb at FDOT can't find the jobs of Jacksonville on this map.

3. The Outer Beltway goes in the wrong direction to be anything more then an Orange Park BYPASS. The route that swings far to the west in Duval is not going to relieve a single car headed into Jacksonville. The only person that might benefit will be the guy living in Clay and working at Cecil or Palm Coast. The same amount of effort and a lot less money could rebuild Lennox from I-10 to Old Middleburg, and hence on Old Middleburg to a point on US-301, just north of Starke. "Instant FREEway to Gainesville" just add transit lanes.


Light Rail could veer off Roosevelt toward OP Mall...


4. The Orange Park deleima is not uniquely solved with BRT, BUS and COMMUTER RAIL either, a look at the Jacksonville Metro area map demonstrates that most of our fixed mass transit could be handled by existing rail lines. Existing EXCEPT the Beaches and the Southwest Side of town. So what if we build streetcar downtown and on out to Ortega? It's not a stretch to think that such a line could either grow into LIGHT RAIL. Otherwise Light Rail could follow Blanding South, or the CSX to Yukon, then veer off Southwest toward the OP Mall. On the East, a new Matthews Bridge/Tunnel would make for an easy link as far as Regency. This would not only be a traffic alternative but would also cause a rebirth of Arlington-Regency...

That's my take, comments?

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

MASS TRANSIT: WILL NOT FIX THE TRAFFIC PROBLEM, not now, not EVER! But good mass transit will offer the wise commuter a high quality alternative to the traffic jams.

thanks Ock...I've been trying to explain this to people like stjr...the reasons to do transit are to provide options and reshape our communities....not to solve traffic problems.

[thelakelander]

Its all about giving citizens choices.  Whether its roads or rail, you can't solve traffic congestion if you're not willing to change land use regulations to limit future sprawl development.  In Jax, we don't have viable alternatives.  From this standpoint, an argument could be made to look at investing millions in establishing alternative modes instead of billions on the roadway network.

[SightseerLounge]

They will build a SPUI at Wells and Blanding! Ha! Imagine that nightmare!

Blanding and I-295 will be nice to look at, but it will not help. That is just one more interchange that Argyle will use. Now, instead of going up Collins to Blanding, they will just clog up the service roads. It will create a whole new jam.

The new interchange will make the Collins overpass jam up in all directions, just like Blanding/I-295, and 103rd/I-295. They should just add exit ramps at Morse/I-295.

Well, at least, Collins Rd. is going to Old Middleburg!

New mast arm traffic signals From Kingsley to 103rd on Blanding won't help a lot, but it did help somewhat.

Collins is going to be crazy.

[SightseerLounge]

4. Get light rail, or even JTA bus with a direct route to SJTC and Southpoint from Orange Park. Sure I can take the express from OP, then take a connector to Gate Parkway/Southpoint/Baymeadows. But it will take too long. I would have to leave my house @ 5:45AM, sit in the parking lot @ KMart in OP, catch the bus to the FCCJ Station, arriving at 7:15AM. Then catch a transfer from Rosa Parks station over to the Kings St Station to catch SS6, hopefully by 7:40AM. This would get me to SJTC @ 8:30AM. Not bad, only 2.5 hours to go from OP to SJTC.

Or, I can take WS91 from Youngerman and Blanding (after having driven through the worst of the traffic already) and catch WS91 @ 7:10AM, get to the Avenues @ 8:04AM, catch S1 @ 9:03AM (wow, only a 1 hr wait) and get to SJTC area @ 9:30ish.

Nah, I'll drive my car for 45 min-1 hr each way and come and go when I want to.

Exactly!!!!! No Words Needed!

[stjr]

MASS TRANSIT: WILL NOT FIX THE TRAFFIC PROBLEM, not now, not EVER! But good mass transit will offer the wise commuter a high quality alternative to the traffic jams.

thanks Ock...I've been trying to explain this to people like stjr...the reasons to do transit are to provide options and reshape our communities....not to solve traffic problems.

Your are right, Tufsu, I don't see this at all, and, as a result, I don't currently agree with Ock on this.  It's a mathematical fact that if mass transit relieves a road/interchange of thousands of cars, it has to contribute to traffic improvement since that is substantially less cars involved in clogging the arteries.  Taken to an extreme, if everyone took mass transit, well, the interchange problem would be completely cured.  That would be a total solution to traffic problems!

Now, if Ock is basing his comment on further growth outrunning the improvements made by a mass transit solution, well, that's a whole other kettle of fish to be solved (by growth management as Lake alludes to) but it doesn't take away from the significant relief given by mass transit at any given level of demand to travel this area.

Given that your $100 million interchange (plus the $29 million already spent on Collins Road) won't fix anything as readily admitted by your road-building brethren, why not put that same money in a mass transit fix that will provide a lot more benefit to a much wider area and, versus the interchange "improvements", maybe more people incrementally, not to mention improving our air quality and reducing our dependence on oil.  Once again, it's cost/benefit.

Tufsu, take off those asphalt covered glasses and get with the program.  

[stjr]

I would like to see some of this mathematical fact stuff.

Stephen, you amaze.  If you take half the traffic off the road, does not the remaining half of traffic using the same space for travel not move better?   What don't you get?

Maybe I should have said it was a law of physics?  Something like density = mass/volume?

[stjr]

you can toss those assumptions out the door, stjr.  Traffic volume conforms to capacity, not the other way around.  Its one of those counter intuitive phenomenons.

OK, I get your drift.  But, nonetheless, that appears to me to be a behavioral change trumping an underlying mathematical fact, i.e. mass transit removes cars, creates a "capacity" surplus (the math segment), and cars return to take advantage of that surplus (the behavioral segment) until an equilibrium of some sort is reached between driving and taking mass transit.

By the way, I don't see the articles you linked to above having anything to do with your proposition.  I am just supposing its possibility intuitively.

[tufsu1]

I would like to see some of this mathematical fact stuff.

ok...here are some numbers for stjr....in 2035 (without any additional improveements beyond what are funded in the next 3 years) traffic at the I-295/Blanding interchange is forecasted to be around 330,000 vehicles per day (and yes, I realize some of this is double counting for cars using both roads)....using an average 1.25 auto occupancy factor, that equals as much as 410,000 people.

Now, even the optimistic forecasts for commuter rail show around 6,000 riders a day on the southwest line....so assuming all of those people would otherwise drive through the interchange, than traffic gets cut by 1.5%

So...once again, transit is not about alleviating roadway congestion (just ask people in NYC, DC, and Chi)....it is about providing choices and changing land use patterns.

[brainstormer]

Is it possible to agree with all of you? LOL  In my opinion building wider roads and more interchanges just creates an illusion that your commute will be easy.  Realtors use it as a selling point, big box developers use it for traffic counts-then more building, and in the end it does nothing to improve traffic flow because new development makes up the increase in traffic.  People will continue to build in the pristine swamps of Clay County thinking that getting to their jobs in Duval will be easy.  We end up spending millions and make little progress.  Actually you could argue that it makes it even worse and certainly does nothing for the environment.

Now, let's look at what happens by spending millions on a mass transit system instead.  With a train system in place, now realtors are using access to it as a selling point.  This moves the development and focus to new areas of town away from the congestion.  It promotes infill and attracts developers who are more interested in mixed use developments, higher density developments and small, local retail.  The tax base in Jacksonville increases in numerous places in the city because light rail stops all along the route now create a new focus for development.  Smart, urban professionals are now attracted to older neighborhoods and unique residential developments rather than feeling the need to live in the Clay County swamps where the new cookie-cutter houses are.  You see tufsu, we have the power to shape development.  Our goal should not be to build enough roads to accommodate 330,000 vehicles by 2035.  We will never build ourselves out of traffic congestion. We need to invest in changing land use patterns now, to create a healthier, more sustainable and stable economy.

[jandar]

Ock,

Run for office. I will vote for you. You understand roads/transit.
Wish there were more of you to scream about needing a bridge south of Fleming Island, not south of Green Cove Springs.

[JeffreyS]

4. Get light rail, or even JTA bus with a direct route to SJTC and Southpoint from Orange Park. Sure I can take the express from OP, then take a connector to Gate Parkway/Southpoint/Baymeadows. But it will take too long. I would have to leave my house @ 5:45AM, sit in the parking lot @ KMart in OP, catch the bus to the FCCJ Station, arriving at 7:15AM. Then catch a transfer from Rosa Parks station over to the Kings St Station to catch SS6, hopefully by 7:40AM. This would get me to SJTC @ 8:30AM. Not bad, only 2.5 hours to go from OP to SJTC.

Or, I can take WS91 from Youngerman and Blanding (after having driven through the worst of the traffic already) and catch WS91 @ 7:10AM, get to the Avenues @ 8:04AM, catch S1 @ 9:03AM (wow, only a 1 hr wait) and get to SJTC area @ 9:30ish.

Nah, I'll drive my car for 45 min-1 hr each way and come and go when I want to.

Exactly!!!!! No Words Needed!

Your right day 1 of a mass transit system this city won't have been built as if their were a transit system in place.
Had their been a good mass transit system in place I would bet the developers of the SJTC would have taken that into consideration when picking their location.
How you want your city to develop is a bigger factor in building transit than is it the most convenient thing ever day 1.
We are a sprawling mess because their is no connective "thing" directing our growth into any logical pattern. Transit lines can do that. Employers, residential developers, retail and more will grow along the lines making them convenient.
Having good transit will not get most people out of their car every day that is not even the goal. Spend some time in Chicago you will use your car, you will use the El, you will use taxis and you will even use the bus.  Trust me when I say you will enjoy having the choice that will make your day easiest.

[CS Foltz]

Well we sure do not have those kinds of transportation options here! More than likely probably won't in the next 10 years  but it is nice to think about! What do we have......bus......whopee!

[Ocklawaha]

I would like to see some of this mathematical fact stuff.

ok...here are some numbers for stjr....in 2035 (without any additional improveements beyond what are funded in the next 3 years) traffic at the I-295/Blanding interchange is forecasted to be around 330,000 vehicles per day (and yes, I realize some of this is double counting for cars using both roads)....using an average 1.25 auto occupancy factor, that equals as much as 410,000 people.

OMG! I think I saw that .25 person in a little white Prius and it sure looked like Mike Miller, I often wondered why people thought he "wasn't all there," then I attended today's Amtrak meeting!

NOW I'M A BELIEVER!

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

yeah...but if the .25 persn is in a Prius, at least they're being environmentally friendly!