Metro Jacksonville Rail Plan Already Spurring Development?

[thelakelander]

Let me try to convince you.

Rail overpasses need much much longer approaches, to keep the grades shallow.

1. I think we can agree that at grade laying track is cheaper and it takes up  less ROW.  The width of a rail overpass carrying three track would be about the same as a the width of a two lane road.

2. While the approach would be much longer, it would not have to be concrete.  Compacted fill would be used for most of the approach. 

3. The width of the FEC corridor at that point is 100'.  If you constructed a vehicular bridge, the actual bridge would have to span the entire corridor.  On the other hand, the railroad bridge would not have to be 100' long.  It would be around 50'.

4. St. Augustine Road, at that point, is in the middle of a curve and has streets intersecting with it less than a block from the crossing.  You would spend much more constructing a curving +40 ft wide automobile bridge over the FEC tracks than you would with a typical bridge.

5. You would also spend much more on the approach considering there are intersections on both sides of the crossing that would also have to be raised.

Also, if people complain about the 'eyesore' of a road overpass - an elevated rail (what, 2, 3, 4 tracks wide, with Commuter Rail) would be prettier?

1. The FEC corridor is 100' wide.  There's plenty of space to buffer the bridge, plus the corridor is already lined with a good amount of vegetation.

2. A vehicular bridge would be more of an eyesore, because it would be curving over the tracks, longer, wider and the intersections leading into nearby residential neighborhoods would be raised.  So the stop sign at the end of a residential street could be at a higher elevation than the height of nearby houses.

So, looking at that particular location, I believe based on the argument above, that a railroad overpass would be less expensive and more visually appealing than elevating St. Augustine Road.

[Ocklawaha]

Railroad or highway bridge can be solved right here and now... Highway's go up, railroads DON'T. The reason isn't cost, space or economics of engineering. It boils down to simple formulas that play into how every rail car is routed. Who can do it fastest? Who can do it for the least fuel? Adding a mile or two of grade to the FEC would be about as well recieved as us telling them we'll start landing aircraft from JIA out on their tracks tomorrow!

Fella's this is one idea this IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!

Ocklawaha

[Steve]

I don't think anyone is saying that FEC would do this out of the goodness of their hearts, they would probably need some incentive.  In addition, I'd also think that a combination overpass/underpass would be a viable option as well - it wouldn't raise the grade too much, and it wouldn't be too unsightly.

Not too mention, what is the elevation around that site anyway?

[thelakelander]

In addition, I'd also think that a combination overpass/underpass would be a viable option as well - it wouldn't raise the grade too much, and it wouldn't be too unsightly.

Bingo.  I don't see why a combination of the two isn't possible.  Its not like it hasn't been done before.  Nevertheless, its just a suggestion on how to deal with the issue of traffic destroying residential neighborhoods.  Its not Bible, but dialouge is needed on issues like this.  Too often we get wrapped in our own little box of agendas and forget about the people being negatively impacted by other's grand visions.  Once again, another reason why a long range plan is needed before we start spending money on any of this.

[thelakelander]

Not too mention, what is the elevation around that site anyway?

The railroad grade is about 5ft higher than the stretch of St. Augustine Road east of the crossing and about 10ft higher than the lowest point of the road, west of the crossing. 

When we came up with the commuter rail layouts, we always knew passenger rail down the FEC corridor would end being much more expensive and difficult to pull off, than the CSX A and S-Line corridors.  JTA's consultants will discover this too as their studies continue.  I think to successfully get commuter rail in this corridor, a deal would have to include several overpasses/underpasses along these tracks.  Right now, there's no bridge to cross the tracks between downtown and University and there's already heavy rail traffic using this corridor.  You'll probably pull in a lot of "anti-rail/mass transit period" support if bridges of some sort were added somewhere in the Southbank, this particular area and Sunbeam or Shad Roads in Mandarin.  It would raise the costs, but it would enhance the flow of vehicular traffic on several major east/west streets in the Southside, plus help capacity issues with FEC.  Its basically killing two birds with one stone.  That's something you can't do if the decision remains to build a busway in this corridor.

What are some other options that could be implemented to solve long term traffic and neighborhood integration problems along the Philips Highway corridor?

[Ocklawaha]

Elevation of maybe a couple of feet extra, might be a hard sell, but maybe we could get that much... Under no incentives or conditions do I see FEC allowing us a 10-20 foot elevated right-of-way. There are simply no conditions or incentives that would make the fuel costs of starting a 100 car train of 250,000 pound freight cars up and over that hill, come down and stay down.

I'm not saying their isn't a solution, simply put, from the railroads view. My recent talk with the VP over there, says highways OVER rail at Sunbeam, St. Augustine and a few more choke points...  Using modern tunnel tech, their is no reason why the road can't just get down below the railroad if we don't want overpasses. Water table, or sea level should have no effect on a properly engineered underpass.

Railroads are built with a ruling grade (yes even in Florida where believe it or not, the steepest grades on the old Atlantic Coast Line, and Seaboard Air Line Railroads were found)... exceed the ruling grade and your head goes into the bucket. So let's say we get an 10' rise in the track out of FEC. With a 1/2% grade, starting our freight transfer for CSX or NS at 100 cars is equal to pulling 25 MILLION pounds up hill. The reason I am saying this would quickly become a big deal is:

1. Extra fuel, burning fuel is not cheap anyway you cut it.

2. Add an extra Locomotive? See the first reason.

3. Starting or stopping a heavy train on the "hill" is costly on two other appliances. Brakes and Wheel slip, both come at a price.

4. FEC, CSX, NS etc... pay rent or "PER DIEM" charges or fee's for every foreign line freight car that rolls on their rails. Allow your track to trash the frame, brakes or appliances and it could get costly. Remember, railroading is very profitable, but THE MOST cash intensive business bar none. Where else could you see a 250,000 pound brand new freight car, with all the latest appliances, From distant Canada or Mexico, so fresh the $125,000 dollar price tag is still hanging from the door.... Traveling 6,000 miles round trip, with a load of rare sand, worth about $1,500 dollars... Hell the shipping charges are $2,250! This little sample is to show that cars that get messed up, delayed or sit, won't pay the rent... Even our little hill is just one more obstacle to profit, that line is razor thin and very big bucks.

5. Some hills are so severe that they require "helper districts" where extra teams of Locomotive lash-ups, wait for the next heavy up or down train to supply the extra muscle to get up and over, or to provide the extra weight and brakes to slow the damn thing down. (I'll admit this isn't one of those type of hills, but it perhaps gives some of you an idea, why you saw engines on the front and back of that train in NC, PA, NY, CA, AZ, CO, UT, WA, OR, etc...) Oh hell, one more freebie too: Why were the extra, or "helpers" cut into the back, the middle and the front of the train? Why not just hook them all on the front?

Give UP??

Come on... Give it a try?

No luck yet?

ANSWER: The weakest link between the cars is the couplers, sometimes here in flat as a pancake Florida, we get "Broken Trains" (IE: the couplers broke like castings will sometimes do... shattered like glass) The weight or motion was just too much or a tiny bubble, or impurity deep within the coupler as it was cast created a "Fault line", sooner or later it would just give up. Now if we have 100 very heavy cars, and hang all the engines on the front, we are tempting fate to break couplers. So to better distribute the forces some engines will push, others pull and the middle group may do either.

Hope all this "RAILROAD 101" helps you, the developer or the City to come up with a good solution that makes everyone happy. We should argue for the railroad that NOTHING is done to mess up that passenger speedway. As for costing "FAR MORE THEN THE "S" or "A"... I don't agree, FEC is not the old FEC, and they will be the nicest of the whole group to work with...

Ocklawaha

[Matt]

Fancy that.

[thelakelander]

Great info, Ock.  Given that the road is already about ten feet lower than railroad grade, a railroad overpass/road tunnel, etc. should be fine without having to raise the current track elevation.  As for the cost, if bridges or extra track is needed, in addition to ROW, its going to cost more than a line that does not require the extra frills.  I don't see any way it can't cost more.

[Ocklawaha]

The key here is the Florida East Coast WAS once completely double tracked, Jacksonville to Miami. Add to this long passing sidings due to heavy passenger traffic and high speeds and we have one heck of a right of way to work with. In the City, St. Augustine, Bowden, Terminal, Bunnell etc... all of the right of way is 3 or even 4 track! Adding a line of railroad on such a ready made spot is a piece of cake.
Ocklawaha

[thelakelander]

Yes its cheaper than building a parallel busway or road, but you would not need to add additional track to the A Line, which is why I say it would be cheaper.  Also, are you assuming there would be no cost to use private rail ROW?

[Jason]

For some reason I just realised that the east side of Phillips is to be developed as well.  Having buildings of 20-30 feet fronting the highway wil be surreal.  I don't think that segment of US-1 has ever seen development like that.

[thelakelander]

No, but it would transform that entire area into a district on its own, which is a far cry from what it has fallen down to today.

[Jason]

You got that right.  I don't know why suburban development hasn't taken to the concept of provideing parking in the rear of the building before recently.

[RyanL]

Does anyone know who is planning on developing this project? I've looked up CRVI Phillips LLP and First Star Development and can't seem to get an actual office or company. Has anyone found out a contact person for the developers?

[thelakelander]

You can try to contact the planning department or the architect.